"The Burger" Bert Berger Tribute!

General Discussion
61
Quote:

Bert, good move coming here to learn mate.

now there’s an interesting comment…

you got me curious Gumby, what sort of things will he be learning?

Meecrafty, I don’t know about you but I try to learn something everyday. About life, about waves, about the equipment I use, about relationships (personal and business) and in general about everything. Everyone is your teacher mate!

Bert is entering the hotpot of surfboard manufacture (homogonised or breakthrough) in Australia right now. It used to be Sydney but now like it or not it’s right here. By bringing his manufacture techniques into this market I assure you he will learn alot, alot about market relevance and how much education it takes to get people off their regular boards. About how other manufacturers will push their own mother out of the way to undercut you by $1.00.

Bert seems to me to be a fairly smart guy, he will take this place as it is. Take his lessons and work out who to rely on and who to forget. My point is Meecrafty that it’s all here mate from legend surfer/shapers to guys that can’t or have never even surfed and have labels and sell over 50 boards a week. If you can’t see all of that everyday and learn something about this industry and the direction it’s all heading with a view to your own product and self preservation (feeding the family) then those halluconigenics you were on in the 70’s took more of a toll than you realised.

I only wish Bert luck with the move. Bert you already know what you’re getting yourself into mate, you just have to take this place for what it is.

I personally am looking forward to having another flavour on the menu to choose from!!!

Here’s another point for you all, while epoxy is by no means new it has never had as much market acceptance as it does right now. You can thank Surftech and Salomon for that, their big budget marketing campaigns have the masses beleiving epoxy is a new revolution and by far stronger and lighter. While not wanting to enter into the for’s or against’s of either method or the merits of imported product. There does seem to be an opening for a custom manufacturer that can ride on the back of the marketing hype only with a custom, Australian made quick to change progressable product. Go get 'em Bert!

62

if ya all interested, I personaly think mass production of stuff is pretty boring .I watched the jewellery trade die in the arse in aussie .( not even apprenticeships in NZ). All because of Mass production techniques and imports .But Hey i dont really care > the consumer decides what happens and so be it…I am a good jeweller and have developed new ways of doing things with limited resources ,by hand in a small workshop,… I can make things ten times better quality then all of the chain stores for about the same price, BY HAND.All the machines invented cant do what i can do BY HAND . cause they cant think ,there not spontaneous. After twenty years i am a master jeweller and can set stones and engrave as well.but the the crazy thing is im poor as…no assets. Plumbers and roofers make more money than i do after two years out of there time , but hey thats life …I aggree with you bert about giving to the poor and getting money from those who can pay.I would quite happily give away everything i know to improve my trade ,but nobody really wants to improve there skills.because they dont need to. to make money. and most people only care about money and owning property and stuff. What im trying to say is, just go surfing dudes, really go surfing .im grateful for the surfboard industry for providing all those people with a board they are incapable of riding as it means more waves for me SO THANKS to all that build lightweight thrusters. its so funny to see half the guys at my local trying to paddle them without success let alone ride them …MORE WAVES FOR ME yahoo… really …I know this is off topic but i love surfing and because of bert i can now make my own boards better than i can buy in any city surf shop >so bert go to the goldie and take there money and teach em everything and if it doesnt work out hey. youve got one life and you dont need to be rich to go surfing every day.

PS bert check a few breaks up in caloundra

Dikies Reef

Wurtulla ,has some nice beachies

i like a break called , Anne ST.

i know a lots changed since i lived there but im sure theres empty peaks still up there

63

Meecrafty, I don’t know about you but I try to learn something everyday. About life, about waves, about the equipment I use, about relationships (personal and business) and in general about everything. Everyone is your teacher mate!

amen brother…just wanted to know what you meant as far as lessons cuz my brain is biased towards technical things on this forum…

you know waaaaay back when bill gates went after non-existant pc software, others tried to teach him lessons like “thats insane, people dont need a computer on their desk” or “its about the box not the software”…you know the rest

maybe bert is simply bored and wants to try something challenging…like convincing a brain washed mass that there is a better mouse trap withing reach…i think its worthy of a try…if youre bored

i see the challenge…but again im biased…more performance, durability and resale value for a bit more money…

you get what you pay for…it works in every other market

just realized the true challenge: getting the surfboard market to behave like other markets…like smart adults

are surfers and smart adults mutually exclusive?

does the surfing market need more smart adults that understand value and have disposable income?

yup, lots of potential lessons here…

edit: i just remembered…I once read a short article about epoxy and tech stagnation in one of the mainstream rags…there was an ending quote by some veteran board builder, regarding how the industry is resting on their laurels… “what the surfboard industry needs is a swift kick in the ass”… think there’ll be many lessons to be learned by all who participate…

64

Welcome to the Thunderdome.

Wouldn’t be the first Aussie to be swallowed by the combine. Just as Simon Anderson’s patent was honored and I’m sure all the kids who surf over here in the good ol USA on one of them thrusters know that it was he and not Al Merrick who is the father of that idea. God Bless America, they figured the forwarding of ideas into industry to leave the inventors way behind. Just sign on the line sonny and ride the wings of the eagle, but you may lose EVERYTHING, did you see the nothing ventured - nothing gained clause, the shit happens footnote, and the copy-cat exclusionary addendum?

Sacrificial lamb chop. I hope it’s for more than Kelly makes for just endorsing the bar of wax that will be the necessary link for, it’s officially ours, thanks bro. And I also await the dissection so I can change the last foot of my ten footer (or the last seven and a half inches of my six footer) and I’m Gold too, without a sixer or a weekend to figure it out. Hey daddio, be quiet, we saw the inside of his board already, there’s NOTHING in there! Oh, but I be paying attention and that was like looking inside a car in the pits with a camera and - no “motor.” Hidden for What Purpose? How have you been winning all these races with no power?

BIG business isn’t about big business men, or friends or even anything remotely human, it’s all about MARKETING. Do you think that the BEST design always wins, in the marketplace? It’s not even about a better product or a great business plan. And it’s certainly not about a revolution, or for children. It’s a slaughter trough, made for bloodletting and draining the next new thing. As soon as the franchise goes up, it will be open season. Hey that’s MY invention, no me. That’s my fat penguin. Isn’t that based on the Tinkler tail? The truth shall be printed in the Surfer magazine? Smile for the camera. At least Ken told it like it is, and he’s just one of the few intelligent people in the industry willing to SHARE to your face, there’s a lot to what he said about “his own ideas” and how much time to “figure you out.” Just wait till you see what else crawls out from under the rocks.

The thing is, I know you’ll do fine on the one thing that you can change, and I hope that is enough for when you return to your family at the end of a long day. That’s where the real difference is made.

65

daddio …

were talking custom made boards ,

can you clone custom made boards ???

someone can disect all they like , you could get millions right now and say im going to get one of berts boards start cuttung and start building them …

but it wont give you problem solving ability , it wont give you methods and construction techniques , you can see whats there , but finding how it got there and in what order for what reasons , and streamlining production techniques , training staff , designing machines , equipment , tools ,creating systems ,what resin to use in what place , how the outer laminate is done , ok so now youve worked out what i did for a 60 kilo surfer with a back foot style , who enjoys punchy waves and enjoys arial manouvers …so you going to cut open every board i do ???and when you change it by 10% is it 10% better??

salomon came and set up right here , employed a lot of crew whom i had direct contact with , they thought it would be that easy …

how far did there millions get them ???

why would you bother spending millions to try and copy someone elses work …

wouldnt it be easier to ring them up and say , im interested in doing your boards whats it gonna cost me , then you would have the latest thing and not just the picture of a board built 12 years ago …when salomon first showed up , i would have sold them everything i knew for 100 k , but after seeing them squander millions on something i regarded as a failed experiment and didnt even commercialise . i now realise its puts even more value on what i have , but also even with the best money can buy , it cant buy you a reputation or credibilty and it certainly cant buy intuition and it cant buy experience …

all of those things get earned the hard way …

which means you either create your own and make a path …

or become a sheep and make poor copies of the real thing …

all the stuff ive shown here on sways is old hat for me , its there to say , that if you want to go in this direction start here … x marks the spot …

im training a guy right now , hes right there in my workshop everyday , hes got all the techniques , machines and equipment and someone to guide him , someone to explain every detail , and yet some of the biggest bose ups are getting made , just from me turning my back and not watching every move …

so how is someone , who would have to create and design the tools and equipment , work out the processes , then get an idea of how each board has to be set up for each person , and learn the whole thing by themselves , technique and develop it from the basics , would they even make the same conclusions and eventually go down the same develoment paths ??

you honestly think my lead would get cut to zero ???

ive had pro surfers win ct events on my boards 10 years ago , more aussie longboard titles than any other board builder in the last 5 years and more west oz titles than any board builder ever …

i would say for my lead to get cut to zero , then either history has to get rewritten or someone will have to come up with something sensationaly better and start claiming titles , all over the place and if they do , great ,then i will have some real competition …

and if someone is going to sink that much into being a competitor , who would they get to develop the systems for them ??? ex salomon workers ??

what about you guys here on sways ??

yes crew will try to imitate no doubt , but you dont realise how much i havent said…

its doable , someone went to addidas and said i got a great idea , and this guy is doing it , so give me millions and i will develop it for you …now that guy had some idea about composites and had boards to cut and paste …

and what have they got ???

they could have done it the easy way …

and rtm ???

id like to see a custom rtm …

and the cnc ??

i heard velzy, one of our respected forfathers being praised for being one of the first to use an electric planer …

did that device take away our individuality , did he start producing clones ??

was he now on the road to mass production pop outs ??

the cnc will be the electric planer of the 21st century , a tool to help your shaper create your custom board …

meecrafty , yes , i have my hat and others have theres …

and anyone who knows the others will admit , the hat they wear is the one that suits them best …

mottola , 12 years ago…

actually , funny connection that board , the guy who i originally built that board for, runs a software company and has developed some amazing new stuff and now works with us …

pinhead , crew on the goldy read sways …and if anyone is reading this thread , some will like it and some wont …

speedy , i know someone else who split from base , and he has nothing bad to say , very amicable split …

holds base in high regard , a very professional outfit …

maurice was over here at one stage , so theres plenty of crew here with a unique perspective on maurice …ive heard all sides and the original comment from years back still rings , maurice is maurice …

heard something funny a few months back so i hope maurice sees the humurous side and doesnt get offended …

i was telling a well known industry indentity, that i really wanted to make sure everything was right , because if you fail in the spot light you never get a second chance …

he says what rubbish , look at how many chances maurice went through and they still love him …

so i wouldnt let my views get slanted from one person …

gumby , agreed , for all the negative things ive thought about surftech or salomon , they have done exactly what you said …

the public has been somewhat educated and they have exposed a wider audience to the benifits …

because , in the past it was difficult for crew to percieve where this could go and saw no need to change …

late eighties , there was a guy over here who really pushed me in this direction , he and i honestly thought this was the future , he even set up a wholesale and distribution business , selling all the raw materials and equipment for composite board production …

he would get my boards and take them around to all the board builders , jump up and down on them , pass it around for crew to feel the weight and show what was possible with advanced composites …

he closed his doors mid to late 90s because of industry apathy …

i had to contact him recently about a file type and some programming issues related to a design program , he hasnt been involved with anyone in the surf business for 7 or 8 years , i tell him about surftech , salomon , how crew are now finnally interested in custom sandwich and can actually see the potential …

he says " you have got to be f**king joking , i thought i would be dead before someone woke up " then he says , "well i bet your glad surftech and salomon came along " he then adds " you had to wait for competitors before crew realised how far ahead you were " …

but i do want to make some points clear , not everyone can see it , and those that can are doing something about it …

and those that can will get something out of it , its not just me , it may take one guy to have a good idea , but it takes a visionary to put it out there …

someone to realise something good when they see it …

so that person deserves the credit …coz there balls go on the line to …

silly . no one said anything about mass production …

is a custom board mass production ??

and imports are as far away as it can get …

this is nowhere near mass production , its tayloring boards for people …

the whole industry is trying to standardise , a one size fits all mentality , in the process the customer is getting ripped …if you dont fit the mould you have to ride a piece of junk …

next week im up that end , got to deliver a stick in coolum and then one in byron , so should get a look around …

meecrafty , i guess were about to find out …

daddio , i know you have an interesting perspective on things , a somewhat cynical but also humourous way of summarising other peoples comments …

and i usually have a good laugh …

but your last post seemed to almost dig a little deeper , and i just wanted to make one thing clear in case it gets misinterpreted …

i may have only started talking flex in here for the last year ,coz thats all its been to you …

but anyone who knows me and has seen this stuff develop over the years , knows to well that flex and spring have been my angle for well over a decade …

just about all the crew who retailed my boards would jump up and down on them like a trampoline to prove the point …

there is even one guy who commented on this thread who would back that one …

other than that , i take all your comments on the funny side …

regards

BERT

66

That was supposed to be funny…

It just seemed to me that you were getting more into the technical/business side and leaving the passion out of your posts. Your last post was loud and clear about the HEART of this matter, and I apologize for overstepping the line, but it seemed to me that a good snapping of the towel was in order. And THAT was the energy level that you must maintain for this to push to the next level.

See you then…

67

Hey Bert,

On the subject of training crew. In two months of pretty intense education I taught two young guys, surfers, who had never touched resin or a sander, to glass and sand boards. At the end they did a very high standard job. They had to as I was leaving.

But…they only knew what I taught them and the techniques I taught them, pu/pe only by the way. My experience, over twenty five years. Theirs, two months. I had to remind them to do things like rinse the hot coat brushes, the acetone doesn’t clean on it’s own.

One guy kept getting small depressions after sanding, so I watched closer to find the problem…laziness had him leaning his elbow on the board while he was hand sanding!

Then at another job, I trained four unskilled people to to do high quality moulded epoxy work, both hand layup and vac bagging. They all had good hands, but no experience. My most common exclamation, which eventually became humorous, was…‘How many times do I have to tell you?!?’ After six years they still had to be managed properly.

I wish you all the luck in the world.

I only hope you are taking your experienced staff with you along for the ride, otherwise you will be spending most of your time chasing your experienced tail, instead of changing the inexperienced surfboard world.

Most of all have fun, and get some rippable Qld waves.

68

hi again

Quote:

silly . no one said anything about mass production …

is a custom board mass production

yeah i wasnt trying to imply that is what you were up to mate. i was really talking about the thai factories, alot of jewellery is made over there as well. .The only way i can compete is to make top quality custom stuff ,So im with you there mate. Anyway heres a few pictures so far. I relize now that i have overbuilt this board but it is still lighter than other pu/pe mals of same size so im stoked so far , I have a feeling the board is going to be quite stiff cause ive deffinately used to much cloth .Bottom is 4oz 2mm balsa then 2 + four ounce… Top is 4oz 3mm balsa 6 +four oz. i dont mind it so much cause im gunna be surfing this board in quite shallow shore breaks so it will get a bit of a hammering .this fin is balsa laminated in vac with 3 by 5mm balsa and 6oz cloth. It will be smaller than in picture(not finished yet) . glassed on .Manga art done in inkjet printer that was a test run ,others look a lot better . Ive decided to make my next board a 6 5" at the other extreme ,really light weight with more of deck concave. So that way ill have a better understanding of the strength to flex ratio…The resin i used was from adhesive technologies. in auckland, It is unreal, quite runny ,clear and flexible,40 degree c post cure uv resitant etc etc.ADR something…Its the best i can get i think… it makes other epoxies pale in comparrison… I think ive worked out where you are comming from in the flex factor bert so im gunna try some stuff next board.anway hope to post some more picks next week so i might do it on another post .

thanks again

Paul Cannon


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69

josh !!!

i just discovered something …

youre a legend!!!

a few times youve made comments on various threads on different subjects , and ive thought , o yea , youve done some time , or covered some ground with different stuff or had insight into some stuff few would …

so i clicked on your name and checked your site …

seriously , your artwork blew me away , your whole outlook and the style of board and how your selling yourself was totally awsome …

i was seriously impressed …

would love a board with something original of yours …one of mine of coarse with your artwork …

question ??

are you finishing over artwork with glosses??

you doing foam or filler when doing gloss ???

why i ask , ive been using an automotive 2 pac gloss and it goes over artwork great and its bullit proof , not like normal automotive acrylic …

youll definatly here from me one day …

what your doing is exactly what you have to do, to do well in todays industry …

stand out …

love the fact you did your first board at 13 , i could relate to that , i did my first one in year 8 just before 13 and ive been hooked ever since …

even when i was at school , all my friends knew i would be a surfboard builder …

question . did you grow up in that area around torquay??

heres my early ones im 14 here and on number 5 , the first one was a single not in the pic …

the work was so bad but they actually went…

how long have you been doing your own label ??

question as well to any long time board builders …

when did the quad come out ???

was there ever a time when the quad really took off and made an impact on mainstream surfing ??

id only discovered this photo not long back when i inherited my mums photos .

but years back i was trying to tell someone i made a quad in 82 and they said rubbish the first ones were getting done around noosa and the goldy in 82/83 …

a guy called john mills ??

anyone know any history related to that ???

regards

BERT

70

I very briefly met Millsy at Sunshine Beach but didn’t discuss board design. I think it was mid 80’s.

The guy absolutely ripped. My take was that twins were too loose for him and singles too stiff.

I’m not sure if he was the first to do it though, but he had a name for riding them.

Did I mention he ripped. For me, a different surfing level, something to aim at at that stage of my surfing.

71

Hi Bert,

So now we’re talking man to man.

I’ve become wary of claiming myself too hard, but I must say, took you a while to get to that website!

I’m proud theres substance behind my comments!

At times I suspect I’ve loved surfboard making more than surfing itself!!!

The first guy I ever watched shaping was my cousin, who made the lifesaving clubby paddleboards down here. I was aware of EPS from the earliest - A crossover man (Surf/clubby ) my cousin Chris Porter shaped shortboards in EPS from the offcuts :- my first board when I was nine. I cracked the fin the day after I took possession of it and therefore learned to fix dings immediately!

At age thirteen my best mates dad was an original partner of Don Burford, from blowing blanks early in S.A - I made my first boards out of seconds they sent me, free of charge!

At age sixteen i took one of my backyard jobs to Torquay. (I grew up in Melbourne, learning to surf on holidays to the coast as well as weekend jaunts, and Port Phillip Bay windchop.)

The first factory I approached was “Watercooled” where I got a job for the summer. (I finished High school, and also finished a fine art degree. )

Subsequent Industry experience included every aspect of board manufacturing. All of it :- from polishing to ghost shaping, Fin foiling, box routing etc etc etc

I’d shaped for a shop at 17…

Shapers I’ve worked for or with include:-

Kym Thompson, Paul Hutchinson, Ronnie Woodward, Tony Cerff, Mark Phipps, Greg Brown, Brett Munro, Russell Head (Bennett) , Maurice Cole, Gunther Rohn, Gavin Carroll (Mocean) and others

But I get tired of blowing my own trumpet!

Interestingly, Kym Thompson is now the production manager of Surftech.

I’ve always had my own little label going, though the last 3 years are the first time I’ve taken it seriously…

I’m equally comfortable with foam or filler spray. I do the bulk of my customs on foam, just because there’s usually time to do it before the glasser wants to get off his arse!

Filler coat sprays :- There are different effects achievable : I.e stencils are far easier on glass. I laquer them in Automotive paint.

I’ve finish coat/ polished over dozens of filler coat sprays:- this takes a degree of care.

Don’t want to go near 2pac. Guys who use it regularly don’t live long!!!

I’d love to spray one of yours.

Do you now understand my gig when I mentioned digitally printed sprays my man? One cannot put a board through a printer, but a piece of corecell…

I want to be in the loop with all this stuff you’re working on somehow.

Have you got a private mail adress?

And did you send me an update of APS 3000?

If so, then I could correspond to that adress?

P.S

It was indeed John Mills in Noosa who made a lot of Quads…can’t say if he Invented them. The labels were H2O and “Star Jamer”

Victorian Rod Stock of “Sea Level” was also a committed Quad man. Ahead of his time in so many ways he left big boots to fill when I stepped up to the plate to shape Sea Levels at 17 when he bailed!

Why we don’t ride Quads:-

Make one, knock the superflous small fins out and see if you can tell it different to a twinnie!

The pix are a sample of my latest customs.

Josh

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yea sounds like a similar gig to me , from the ground up , cleaning the bays , dings , right through every aspect of production for others …

i got out early and did my own thing , coz no one i worked for would do epoxy and after seeing some epoxy boards around 84 from the states , i just knew it was where the future of boards would head …

its funny you mention H2O coz i was working for them over here in dunsborough , just north of margs , when ron baker who was millsy’s partner back in noosa says to me " if you really want to try all these ideas bert , your gonna have to start your own business " …

so i did , within the first year of doing my own thing , i teamed up with a guy ray joslin and started doing star jammers in 88 …

both these guys were into quads and spoke of millsy … so had plenty to do with both those labels …

ray and i later started barracuda …

check the starjammer influence

6 channels 6 set fins with the optional centre …

fat ray was my first introduction to a QLDer …

it should have been star scammer …

your first ding story was interesting to …

mine started at 9 as well …

our house was on the beach so my uncles and cousin would leave there boards in our garage …

my cousin would only come down every few weeks so i had the run on all these boards …

needless to say a fix by a 9 year old wasnt exactly invisible , they made my mum buy me a board of my own …

im always contactable via sways , when im on the goldy im on someone elses computer , so sways is a safer bet to get me anytime …

im not sure what you meant by an update of aps 3000 ??

you mean the beta version?

that would be jimmy and miki … said hello and got together up there , but thats about it , was playing around trying some stuff with the digital scan load to aps for ghost option , we were talking at one stage about doing something together ,

but everyone was to busy doing there own thing …

so im not involved in any way with aps , appart from a beer or 2 with miki and a few surfs with jimmy …

to be honest id love to work with someone like yourself as well , coz i can see your logic , it didnt take you long to see where it can go …

at this stage its to early for what i know you could contribute …

thats what i meant when i said you would hear from me one day …

do you know anything about daves work at diverse ??

he doing some really kool stuff and really breaking some new ground with graphics application techniques …

i think there is scope for artists to make a dollar off designs just like a shaper would from having his designs used …dave if you end up reading this thread , was gonna catch up with you in the future about artwork as well …

speedy ,will pm you now as well …

ok gota get some other work done , so im out for now …

regards

BERT

73

 

  well it took me 5=yrs to find this thread fark i am old

ok bert if you still read this it was me that got the original starjamer label to a comercial standard remember it requires good shaping good glassing good finished product to bring showroom sales’/  imposible on the fat mans ability

**the product was up and running when a young millsy was brought in.  on my sugestion  (so i could piss off away from him and start  laguna bay)
**

**yes we had done quads in 81 but were not the first like alot of designs on the east coast they spread like wild fire **

i do remember millsy slipping an h2o logo on a board when the fat man was not around

i also have a vague memory that ray and mike st john were in conflict over that label  funny how he now uses laguna bay?

so you linked with him in 88 haaaaa’‘’  well i bet you learned a lesson there.

 

**     cheers huie
**