How is the installation with a vacbag rather than hand layup? Found this post from MrJ but was wondering if anyone else had any experience?
http://www.swaylocks.com/forum/gforum.cgi?post=195745;#195745
thanks,
Mark
We are pretty used to getting bashed around on here these days and not surprised in the least to see our competitors often times leading the charge. At the same time, it is refreshing, rewarding and always much appreciated to see that there are people out there that think we are doing at least some things right.
To set the record straight, a portion of FCS is owned by a bank, other portions of the company are owned by a venture capitalists company, and other portions are owned by some individuals. The representative from the bank that oversees FCS just so happens to surf and is actively engaged in our business. The venture capitalists and the other individual owners also happen to be avid surfers and are also actively engaged in our business. These are all facts. The myth lies in that FCS has endless pockets. Business is business, and believe me, just like any other well run company, we have spending budgets and a business plan that keeps us well within our means. Do we sometimes give away product to key influencers in our industry that can spread the word if they like it and also give us valuable feedback on ways we can improve? Yes. Do we sometimes give away product for grass roots events and charities that help support our customers and surf communities around the world? Yes. Do we sometimes give away product to reward our customers for the promotion and marketing of their brand and loyalty to ours? Yes. Once again business is business, and all of these things are normal business practice and within the means of our company and budgets for conducting our business.
Another myth, FCS is just cruising at the top these days and doesn’t have to do much to keep its current market share. This couldn’t be farther from the truth. We currently have a young and tuned in product development team that are above average ability surfers and are totally engaged in our industry and business. They are busting their asses day in and day out to not only improve our existing range of products, but also develop new and innovative products that will hopefully help carry us out another 10 years and beyond. They are constantly looking to our customers for feedback on ways to improve our products. Our sales and marketing teams are doing the same. We have released over 30 new fins to the market in the past year and a half alone, this aught to be testament to how hard our product development guys have been working. These are all facts. Competition is a good thing and has been good for us the past few years. There was a time there for a while that we admittedly got a bit complacent, but those days are behind us now and have been for some time. Our loss of market share is also debatable, and if anything, we have regained lost market share in the past year here domestically in the US. If you disagree, simply visit as many retail shops as you can in the US and count the number of domestic built boards you see with FCS vs. other fin systems and glass ons. We did so last year and again this year to compare and it showed a definite increase in our market share.
I’ve never understood why people feel the need to bring down individuals or businesses that are at the top of their game. Look at Kelly Slater, Tiger Woods, Michael Jordan, etc. There are always people trying to criticize and bring them down. All of those examples brush it off and keep doing their thing. We will do the same. We will continue our dedication to customer service excellence. We will continue our dedication to creativity and innovation. We will continue to try to increase the enjoyment of the surfing experience through the enhanced performance of our products. And we will continue our commitment to the surfing culture.
These are no doubt challenging and changing times we are all in right now. We realize we must embrace, adapt and adjust to these changes in order to press forward. Hate all you want, we will continue to work hard at it every day. To those of you who still use and believe in our system and products, we humbly and sincerely thank you for your business and support. We will continue to work for you and firmly believe the best is still yet to come. For the rest of you that haven’t used FCS in a while, keep an open mind and maybe give it a try again sometime. You never know, you might just be pleasantly surprised with what you find………
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Look at Kelly Slater, Tiger Woods, Michael Jordan, etc. There are always people trying to criticize and bring them down. All of those examples brush it off and keep doing their thing. We will do the same.
Hey! You forgot Lance Armstrong! LOL!
Seriously though, welcome to swaylocks, good to see the “industry” peekin’ a look at the community…
Hi Simon, couldn’t agree with you more!
i’ve been using 4 way fin system for years and wouldn’t use fcs again, why use a “static” fin system compared to all the advantages you can get out having adaptability. for those who don’t know, it’s often referred to as “4ways” or www.4wfs.com … it will great to see the industry start using the technologies that are currently available and see how it will benefit surfing & performance.
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Hi Simon, couldn't agree with you more!i’ve been using 4 way fin system for years and wouldn’t use fcs again, why use a “static” fin system compared to all the advantages you can get out having adaptability. for those who don’t know, it’s often referred to as “4ways” or www.4wfs.com … it will great to see the industry start using the technologies that are currently available and see how it will benefit surfing & performance.
There are those who would say 4 way is also static…the fin doesn’t move WHILE you are surfing, does it?
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Quote:Hi Simon, couldn’t agree with you more!
i’ve been using 4 way fin system for years and wouldn’t use fcs again, why use a “static” fin system compared to all the advantages you can get out having adaptability. for those who don’t know, it’s often referred to as “4ways” or www.4wfs.com … it will great to see the industry start using the technologies that are currently available and see how it will benefit surfing & performance.
There are those who would say 4 way is also static…the fin doesn’t move WHILE you are surfing, does it?
Is was just reading about design concepts and “client active” and “client passive” spring to mind to seperate the rfs from 4wfs 
I like the 4wfs, but fin the selection of fins (and the selection in stock) a bit limited. The fins I got are way thicker than whats normal for futures and fcs atleast. I have yet to get them in a board and in the water tho. sigh
regards,
Håvard
Hey Haavard I’m in the UK and get the fins direct from South Africa and the exchange rate works to my advantage. I use them because I like the service.I have most of the fins on offer in a variety of materials and am still trying a lot of them out. If there is something that you think is missing from the fin range contact Dean and he may be able to get what you want made. I have a really nice set of twin keels they made me. Also I like the thickness of their fins ( 8mm or 5/16" max) ,it gives the solid base and the twang in the tip from the foil. I have to go back and reread the posts about thicker fins being better in some conditions.I remember Bert making thicker fins as it “put the magic” back in his boards. To be fair I think his were thicker and lighter.
I get the impression from other posts about South Africa that its mainly shortboards being made and used so that may account for them not having the fins you want in their range but I found them progressive in their outlook and willing to respond to customer input.Maybe Surfrat can comment on what is typically available off the shelf and from shapers there?
Its as easy to make your own as any other system and I have done a few by laying up on a sheet of aluminium with an edge bent up to give the standard tab angle.I used a couple of spacers and sandwiched the tab whilst the glass was still wet between some timber and this gave me the correct thickness of the tab to fit the interdisk without additional work.
Whoever the manufacturer of fins/finboxes,its good to see them responding to new materials and boardshapes.
Mark
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I get the impression from other posts about South Africa that its mainly shortboards being made and used so that may account for them not having the fins you want in their range but I found them progressive in their outlook and willing to respond to customer input.
yep… there are quite a few longboard shapers/surfers but very progressive with small centerfin setups and no 4w boxes. But you can probably have one made with 4wfs if that’s what you want.
Yo Sways fans, If to care, take time to read a vital tread from 2004. Now intergrate it with the recent launch of FCS new system and make up ypur own mind.
Out of interest, it has been some 3 years since FCS has participated Saways . Where is Tyler after pointing out that there were no bad plugs (the old black ones) only bad installation. Yet Ron says in 2008 that a bunch of plugs(p-2) all properly installed still failed. So which FCS spokesperson is telling the truth, Maybe they both are which means the P-2 was doomed to failure from it’s release, but was an easy fix and ‘Mushroom’ Marketing.
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Howzit Swaylockians, Just got off the phone with my FCS rep and the the Hawaii branch will be closing sometime in August for good. Seems that the hawaii branch has been losing money from the start but the original owners felt it was a viable market for exposure. Well over the last 2 years ownership has changed a couple of times and the new owners are only interested in the bottom line. They may keep a couple of reps here but all products will come from Cali. I was also told that where before FCS was the main fin system in Aust. that is no longer the case there. The rumor from the peanut gallery is that they are going for tax write offs and this could finish off the co. This is a bummer since a lot of builders in here tried Futures and decided to go back to FCS for 1 reason or another. One question for the Aussies is if FCS is no longer the big system in Aust then what is the system being used now? Also was told that FCS might go after Pro-Box for some infringement BS which is total BS since Mitch and Robin started from scratch with their system and just because FCS may have been trying to do something similar doesn't mean that they have the right to sue somebody. I personally don't want to have to order from Cali or even deal with them since I understand the Cali reps are not that good and this would definitly change shipping times on top of having to deal with a new rep. On top of all this Futures is in the process of building a warehouse on Oahu so they can better serve board builders. Aloha,Kokua
The interface between board and fin is a very important part of every fin system. (Not withstanding, we’re all looking for the most efficient template and foil on our fins.) Surfing puts a consistent and significant force on that interface - particularly the rail fins in a thruster or a quad configuration. Even with a skilled installation the current FCS plug system is the chronic weak point in their whole system. Until we transitioned to the Futures system we found it wise to “cap” FCS plugs for greater shear. An extra step we really didn’t want to take to maintain the quality of our boards. Surfers and manufacturers alike will ultimately steer away from a weak point. If FCS is in decline or on the way out I think that’s their biggest problem.
Kind regards to all,
Steve Coletta
(Geez I’m bored hanging out at home after surgery. Thank heavens for Swaylocks to pass the time. Hope I’m not posting too much this morning. Must have been that extra cup of green tea …)
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The interface between board and fin is a very important part of every fin system. (Not withstanding, we’re all looking for the most efficient template and foil on our fins.) Surfing puts a consistent and significant force on that interface - particularly the rail fins in a thruster or a quad configuration. Even with a skilled installation the current FCS plug system is the chronic weak point in their whole system. Until we transitioned to the Futures system we found it wise to “cap” FCS plugs for greater shear. An extra step we really didn’t want to take to maintain the quality of our boards. Surfers and manufacturers alike will ultimately steer away from a weak point. If FCS is in decline or on the way out I think that’s their biggest problem.
Kind regards to all,
Steve Coletta
(Geez I’m bored hanging out at home after surgery. Thank heavens for Swaylocks to pass the time. Hope I’m not posting too much this morning. Must have been that extra cup of green tea …)
Hi Steve, since you say that the interface between board and fin is VERY important…I’m curious as to why you guys switched to a system with the same type of fin fit?
I think FCS had/has a monopoly on the surfboard fin market for many years. Hopefully it is now coming to an end. It’s amazing what a difference a little competition makes and I look forward to seeing more from them.
Cheers, Jim! I’m not sure what you mean by fin fit ? Do you mean the FCS and Futures systems have the same type of fin fit ?
To clarify, I was referring to the entire base of the fin embedded in the box / board, very much like the “interface” between board and fin of a glassed on set of fins but without the “fering.” (Although a glassed on fin sits on the “surface” of the board.)
I’ve been working with Shawd and Glen DeWitt for decades and I do like the lokbox system. They’ve been trying to convert me for quite some time. Shawd has gone out of his way to point out the excellent properties of the lokbox system. I truly like your system. It’s a really solid (pun intended) design. I just prefer the Futures boxes, the installation technique, and the way fins have no gap whatsoever along the base no matter the rocker or bottom contours. I know your system is very user friendly (for manufacturer and client) and does a great job of addressing those issues as well.
Kind regards,
Steve Coletta
Howzit Rocklobster, I must be stupid since I don’t see what my post has to do with the current situation. That post was about the fact that we in Hawaii were losing our inventory of FCS items in Hawaii. I have to say that at that time the CA. reps in CA were getting a lot of flack about not taking care of their clients. What was good was with in a couple of days the reps began servicing their clients better. As for the second generation plugs I had no problems with them and they were easier to install since no more time spent wiping them with acetone, I still have some in stock and continue to have success with them. I have found that CA has been really good to me and my orders now arrive quiker than when that came out of Oahu. I have no complaints with FCS and they have proven to be great still to work with. Sure thay have had some problems with some of their ideas but that’s a part of doing business. If you don’t try new ideas then you become stagnent and will some times eventually fail. I think it’s great that they are trying to improve on their system and admit when they make a mistake, something that not all businesses will do. Another thing is that post had some quotes from the previous rep who at the time was not to happy and decided to quit with out even letting FCS know, he just left the job. Our new rep Kaipo Guerreo has become a great rep and FCS should be proud of him. I believe that builders who like and use FCS will continue to and the same goes for ProBox. Why should FCS be faulted for trying to improve their system, it’s like the old saying about making a better mouse trap. Seems to me that none of the systems are going out of business and some are actually doing better. It’s up to the builder which system he wants to use and likes best. Fin systems have been critiqued on Sways for years now and FCS has had more than their share of bashing, but they are still leading the industry and just shows that they are doing things right. As I’ve said so many times “It’s not the system but the instllation that makes systems work like they were designed to be” .Aloha,Kokua
Bit off topic, but on the subject of FCS and service.
I bought a set of the FCS soft racks. Australia has been in a drought for several years and I mainly use the racks when traveling, so I can put boards on hire cars. At the beginning of the year it happened to rain when I was using the soft racks and found the hard way that the door seal was broken by the softracks, so water streamed into the car. Loosening the racks enough did not seem a safe option.
I tried to find a contact number in Australia or any e-mail address but without success. Lots of promo stuff. When buying a board bag recently I asked the guy in the surf store where I bought the racks and his reply was basically: yeah that is a problem with them, not much you can do about it.
I am open to suggestions /solutions.
Bob
Zit is good, Kokua,
The point in digging up that thread is that that was the last time FCS had any input on Sways, and that only came at the end under extreme pressure from yourself and others.
Kokua it is great that you have had such a good FCS experience. But it was they that started the new debate and invited question…many of which remain.
They last sentence of your post highlights an issue, you say…
[=Blue]As I’ve said so many times “It’s not the system but the instllation that makes systems work like they were designed to be”[=Blue]
It was Ron from FCS who admitted that plugs installed by one of his best guys who he knew did it right, had plug after plug cracking. It was not the install but the plug.
One of the main reasons that FCS is not going anywhere soon is that so many people have multiple sets of their fins sitting in their garages. I would guess that 80% of the boards I see on the central coast (CA) are using either FCS or Futures. As a backyard shaper I rarely give fins to my friends anymore. They want FCS or Futures because they have fiberglass or composite fins that they don’t want to go to waste. From what I have seen most of the new systems are better, but they are only better because they were able to learn from the mistakes made by FCS and Future. I think the lokbox and probox systems look great and I truly appreciate all the advice and expertise they offer on swaylocks. Every time I make a new board I say I am going to switch, but then I never do. I guess I am lazy and I go with what is comfortable.
Howzit elewis, I know what you mean about people not wanting fins because they have some already. The thing is if you just install plugs then they have to pay for the plugs and that will run about $15, so I tell them that for another $12 they can get a set of fins also and there may be a fin set they don't have in their quiver. About 80% say well if the fins are only $12 more than give me a set. Just trying to give them the better deal.Aloha,Kokua
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Why wouldn't FCS work out some sort of licensing deal w/ manufacturers (if they haven't already)? It would be like free money!! You license a company to use the trademark, they pay you. They already have tons of market exposure and there's still demand for a few of their signature fin lines. What would the harm in selling a license to company X to market a Joel Parkinson signature or a Mick Fanning signature fin line? Kids go crazy for that sh*t.
All of a sudden, people stop buying your products and buy your competitors instead. Add to the fact when was the last time you heard of someone in this industry getting rich from royalties? Apple did this about ten years ago. Just about bankrupted the company. I also worked for a company (non surfing related) who licenced their business forms to someone else. All it amounted to was sales going elsewhere and propping up someone else’s business.
One thing that I have noticed in regards to FCS is no install video on the website. This was the reason I choose Futures (firstly) and then Speeedfins as there support seemed much better. Would it be too much to ask for FCS to put something like this on the site so everyone who wants to learn to install them can?