The Death of FCS

General Discussion
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If Lokbox or Futures was owned by a bank with bottomless pockets, that doesn't mind giving product away at an alarming rate, or paying people off to put boards with said product into tradeshow booths, FCS would be history by now.

Thus highlighting the difference between being in the market first, and trying to make up marketshare against someone else. It is definitely perceived as unfair to those entering the business later. It is perceived as reality to people familiar with developing and mature markets.

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That being said they are losing market share by the day.

I’m not sure about this. FCS seems to be losing US domestic manufacturing market share for sure. But that is a stable or shrinking market. They seem to be dominating the import market which is growing by leaps and bounds.

FCS does have a lot of competition, most of them engineered better, but FCS makes good business moves for the most part. And in business if you are currently on top, by a long margin, you don’t really have to make that many good moves to keep the business going well.

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Lightest is argueable at best, and with around 13 steps to install, easiest to install is argueable as well.

The fact is that FCS is readily installed with just a drill, no router needed. No matter how much you engineer a router install, it will still be tougher than the FCS install.

For that matter, Futures requires a single constant depth routed line. It is literally as easily as possible for a router install. And it is done by the shapers, which the glass shops LOVE, because that saves them the time of installation. Time is money. The shaper does it in 5-10 minutes per board. That fact has a lot of shapers and glass shops using Futures as their first choice, because human labor hours are the most expensive variable in surfboard production.

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Was in Epoxy pro yesterday and noticed very few if any FCS boards in there. Just a matter of time, but i'm no hurry for the race to the bottom. I've set out to develop something better, and more reliable, and I think I've done just that. If your main criterias for using a fin system is availability or ease of repair that's pretty sad. I'm concerned with performance. If it's designed well repair isn't much of an issue.

www.lokboxfins.com

I was speaking about the market and how the market reacts, not how I react. Availability and ease of repair DO matter to surfers. It is hard to claim a REAL performance advantage when most surfers see Kelly Slater in FCS ads and note he has won multiple world titles ONLY surfing FCS. That alone will make it VERY difficult for any other fin company to argue they have a performance advantage.

The fact that FCS installs with just a drill makes it very difficult for other fin companies to claim they have an installation advantage.

The fact that FCS plugs are tiny and weigh next to nothing makes it hard for other fin companies to claim they have a weight advantage (even though they may use more resin that others and don’t have a real weight advantage).

FCS is not on top for no reason. They care a lot about what makes their business work. And they attend to that.

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Glad you love it and it’s working out for you. For most people, surfers that is, especially swaylockians, don’t purchase products soley based on hype, big ads, or whose paid to use it. It’s about the product and the service. To use your logic if it was all that, then no other systems would exist, and or certainly not be growing. The list of surfers pro and general consumer alike, are using other systems more and more. Ask people here their opinion on Probox and you’ll see mostly positive responses. Why? Because it’s better, and caters more to experimentation for the smaller level board maker, which are where most of the design advancements come from. Denying that is basically writing off this whole website and it’s accomplishments. My goal was, and has always been to develop something more reliable, with more options. Keeping in touch with the domestic market is the main priority. Not to become the world standard, or take over any markets. If that happens, it’s a testiment to the system, not the full page ads. Solid distributors get the word out in their respective markets, so availability takes time, and if done right, eventually will happen.

5 years ago there may have been 2 or three out of the 20 glassers in oceanside installing fin boxes into the foam. Now every single one is doing it. I can post pics if you like. I agree that the router is a problem as opposed to the drill, but the router is more accurate, and training isn’t that hard. Most glassers are doing what their customers are asking for, not what’s the easiest anyways. Future and Lokbox are in nearly every big glasshop in southern ca. at least, and being used daily. If I was a shaper i’d definitely be taking the 15 minutes to drop boxes in. Glass it, hotcoat it, done. Your board get glassed faster because it wouldn’t need to get finned, and you’d set your own angles.

Please feel free to dissect my post into 8 quote boxes.

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The fact is that FCS is readily installed with just a drill, no router needed. No matter how much you engineer a router install, it will still be tougher than the FCS install. ___________________________________________________________________________ I just watched the ProBox install vid and I don’t see how the FCS is less complex than that…

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Hey,I can teach anyone how to make a knock off fcs plug,either the quick and simple way or one that involves more …!!!

It’s not that hard.Herb

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Glad you love it and it's working out for you.

Please do not misinterpret my intended dissection of FCS’s business rationales as any sort of indictment on yours or anyone else’s fin system. I think they got on top early, and are doing as little as they can that will allow them to stay on top. From a business perspective, it is hard to fault that. Kinda darwinian. It is fun to bash Microsoft too, but it is easy to see how their business moves let them stay on top.

It is very cool, OTOH, to see innovation from the competition in multiple areas…

I don’t use your fin system or FCS or Futures or ANY fixed fin systems in my boards, so it is inappropriate to say “Glad you love it and is working out for you”. Neither statement is even close to accurate.

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If your main criterias for using a fin system is availability or ease of repair that’s pretty sad.

Don’t worry, I won’t take offense at you calling me sad :slight_smile:

I know every market is larger than the New Zealand market, and therefore more important to manufacturers.

So that said, it leaves us small fry down here out in the cold.

I had Red X in one of my boards I made in the states, and when needing a replacement box, had to jump through hoops just to get my hands on one. At a crazy price. (hit the reef the day before leaving Santa Cruz, no time to get a red x box.)

Loxbox in New Zealand? Whats that? Is there a distributor? The system looks all well and good, but availability?

Futures are here, but I don’t use them through personal preference. They don’t offer what I want in a fin system.

Have installed Speeedfins, nice install system, but I don’t ride their fins. Personal preference.

Have considered using them though.

I’ve been using a fin system that is basically identical to Red X, but made locally.

Before you yell “rip-off!”, I believe they were around well before red x, in sailboarding circles.

Unfortunately I’ve been told they will be discontinued soon.

So, You really have to look at what gives you the best overall benefit, and sometimes performance is outweighed by circumstance.

With FCS, I can buy them readily, make fins, sell boards, and have an adjustable system.

Just make the fin tabs smaller, so you can move them up and down in the boxes.

Plenty strong enough when your using carbon fibre for the tabs.

As I said, im coming a complete circle, started off with FCS, and now going back to them.

But this is NOT based on performance.

In New Zealand, the majority of waves that are surfed are beach breaks, especially where I live.

Never snapped a fin out from hitting the bottom.

Hitting my friend, yes!

I’d love to ride something better, but that great big monster that is FCS sorta dictates what we do in places like this.

I don’t believe futures or Speeed fins are superior enough to warrant using.

Feel free to rip into me for going the path of least resistance, but as blakestah said, until theres a real benefit offered by another fin system, then in small markets like this, your pretty much gunna see FCS.

The local fins that I was using are cheap, strong, adjustable, accepted in my home town, used by one of the well known board makers, and I’ve got a system for making my own fins.

Can’t take them overseas though.

Pity.

I can’t believe i’m backing up FCS, I’ve been ragging them for years… Their benefits are not surfing related, obviously.

Kit

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Herb!

I’d love to get in on the home-made FCS system…

That way I can get all the “benefits” of FCS, without lining the pockets of the corporate giant… (as much at least).

Anarchy, sort of like bootleg microsoft software.

Seriously, I’d love to see what you’ve come up with, what does it require to be let in on the secret.

If you were in New Zealand, the currency is beer, i’d buy you a dozen!

Then help you drink em.

Such is the way of things in the southern ocean.

Kit

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Howzit Jim, I believe this thread was originally about FCS getting rid of their outlet in Hawaii and now it'sturned into a comparison between FCS and Lokbox. 2 totally different types of fin systems and both have their places in the business. Lokbox has way more fin options and it is an easy install and way better than Futures system in my mind. FCS may seem to be an easier install but if done wrong it's toast. We talked about how Kauai is a FCS island and it's hard to change peoples mind set but if I could only use 2 different systems it would be Lokbox and FCS, your system rocks.Aloha,Kokua
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Sorry you misinterpreted what I said. Didn’t say "you were sad, said “it’s” sad. There are better things out there, but most of those things you have to seek out a bit, if your looking for benefits above and beyond the standard stuff. As time goes on, and enough people demand it, then it becomes more available. By summer, it should be in New Zealand as well as OZ. Most of the customers we have, and team riders for that matter use it due to the frustrations stemming from using glass-ons, other systems, or just for the options of adjustability. That proves it’s benefits for us daily. Most surfers don’t have the option of resizing fin tabs, or using custom made fins. FCS has done a monumental job at blanketing the globe. For sure a template to go by. Competition is a great thing that keeps products and business practices constantly improving. We’ll do our best to be involved in that. Thanks

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Thanks Kokua!! Coming from a board builder of your experience and status that’s a giant compliment. It’s guys like you that keep me going. When something has obvious benefits, well you like to promote that. Even if it isn’t readily obvious to everyone. That’s my job. My battle. I’ve been in 7 different countries in the last 3 months, working on that availability thing. It ain’t easy I promise you, but i’m a persistent bugger. Little by little.

P.S. howz Rick?

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Glad you love it and it’s working out for you. For most people, surfers that is, especially swaylockians, don’t purchase products soley based on hype, big ads, or whose paid to use it. It’s about the product and the service.

Since I don’t see the big adds (I hardly read surf mags) it’s all about what’s readily available to me. I’ve been trying to order lokbox fins and boxes for litterally years (because of the available fins like keels) and still have no success. To be frank, sometimes I don’t even get a response to my emails… This might have changed over the last couple of months, but so far that’s my experience with lokbox. For fcs I can order online from a number of sources or go to the local surfshop. Being able to install with a drill is a plus, no jigs. If the other contenders gave away their jigs that would help, but still thelearning curvefor fcsinstall is low incomparision.just mytwocents regards, Håvard

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Howzit Jim, A good system deserves good reviews. Talked with Rick a couple of weeks ago and he is setting up an all epoxy shop. He asked about picking up the install kit and I told him to come by and get it since it needs to be used and this way Lokbox will make it entry into the Kauai market. Being an ex wholesaler I know it can take a lot of time and effort to make inroads but I think you will make it happen,the system is good and as more people try it they will find out just how good it is.Aloha,Kokua

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I’m sorry Haarvard, I don’t remember receiving any requests from you personally. Sorry If I missed one. since your in Norway, you need to contact Mick in England at Classic surf supplies. southernbooks@lineone.net He’s very efficient and should get back to you right away. You can also contact me at lokbox@sbcglobal.net and I’ll forward your request to him myself. There are also several online sources to get our fins as well, but the price and service will better for you through Mick.

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Okay but he,hee,heee,

let’s do this underground !Herb

My new Motto:

                 I'd rather hunt with Dick Cheney..................Than ride in a car with Ted Kennedy !
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Herb,

I love your new motto.

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LOL…ya Bill,

I saw that motto in your neck of the woods this weekend.

I stayed at the Lowes Coronado hotel w/ my family.We are gold Star/VIP status,so we get a suite for about half of a regular room price.

Met Andi Dick(my wife’s fav) and Luis Guzman(a bad boy type actor).hanging out in the bar lounge.

Anyway,I’ll be back down there the 22rd thru Xmas day—something like that?

I forgot to bring your # but I’ll bring it with me during the silly holiday.If you feel compelled to stop by …it’s a really nice hotel and the fishing right off the patio is great…no pressure…lol.The hotel doesn’t mind that I fish but some of the uppity guests look at me as if I was beneath them.Luis loved it !

Again,I’ll pm you and see whatz up !Herb

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Herb,

That sounds like a deal. Keep in touch as the date approaches. We NEED to do some fishing.

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I’d rather have a drink with Ted and his honeys and then put some birdshot in Dick’s flat ass.

Yay! Politics!

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Herb,

I love your new motto.

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Sorry Janklow,it was a joke…in poor taste yes,but a joke none the less.

Another one I like is:

                        "Guns kill people".................................... "Like spoons make Rosie O'Donnell fat".
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Lockbox is right on about Mick Haavard - really good guy.

As for me and fin systems, its true that FCS have distribution down to a tee - but personally Im a 4WFS guy all the way.