well, it’s probably safer than directing you to 'rubberlove’s hooded …er…“suits” website , eh ?
ben
nothing wrong with this. looks fun to me and the girls
“photos please”
oh great Ben, now we got S&M/Latex/Fetish-guy testing Oneula’s quiver
(this thread is not derailed at all…
the best blind test other than disguising the surface like they do in ski tests is to give it to one of the not so smart blahlah rippers here and don’t tell him anything and let him have a go at it and let you know how it went.
Especially if the guy was born and bred on a hawaiian made potato chip his whole life…
Alot of guys here can’t read or even afford to buy a magazine, all they do is drink, smoke crack or weed and surf…
Now that’s double blind testing Haubush style…
Just afraid I wouldn’t get the board back without a gun.
"Alot of guys here can’t read or even afford to buy a magazine, all they do is drink, smoke crack or weed and surf… Now that’s double blind testing Haubush style… " Ho! fo real coz… sad but true…
I always wondered how that was done in bigger industries like skiing, of course things are cut-and-dried and repeatable. Surfing is so much more subjective, development cycles are much longer than any other action sport I can think of; no two waves are truly alike, we try to ride the same board in many conditions, etc.
The other approach is to get a consensus of trusted surfers, or “board critics” if you will, a bit like rating the newest cars in the mags, or a new movie.
Personally, I’ve had to pull back and re-assess what I wanted to achieve. I have been working hard to define and assess elements of surfboards (both cerebrally and physically) in a way in which I can isolate the key elements and associate them with a particular “feel”. In your case, maybe it is more of a “Surfboard Shootout” where, out of a group of boards, a “winner” is determined. In a way, I’ve had the ‘shootout’ a while back then I made 3 identical winners and assessed why they did/did not feel alike. I saw your criteria, so figured an assessment was coming, but each tested item needs to be bound to an impression from a surfer, so I guess we have to see how things pan out.
I watched a documentary on the Wright brothers and how systematic they were, again I think their basic premise was clear in that they wanted just to achieve flight, not do aerobatics. I was amazed how relatively quickly (about 8 years) they were able to go from kites, to wind tunnels, to gliders, to the Wright Flyer. They had narrow windows of time to work within, and nature really dictated their progress. Today, we have surfers and shapers worldwide pushing designs and now forums to bring the individual efforts together into a collective conscious that is greater in result than the sum of the individual efforts…
…the down side of sharing the info is how potential designs can be narrowed in concept and standardized, and bright new ideas abandoned because of someone else’s ravings or pontifications. The most stubborn/eccentric builders are the coolest, since they understand their personal goal and will design and build uninhibited…
hi plusone
,your comments on volume i understand,windsurfers used to have their volume expressed in litres to give an idea of flotation but i have always thought that for surfboards a better way and one which i keep intending to try would be to imerse the board under water horizontally to say 1 foot depth and measure the force it takes to hold it there,this would be more like a resisstance to bouyancy test and in this way it takes into account the different materials and cores in use ,two boards the same size one made from lead the other single 4oz have the same volume but wildly different resisstance to bouyancy ,
if it was possible to have a standard ie 20deg water ,1 ft depth and a scale 1-10 it would take a big part of the guess work out of picking a board with the perfect bouyancy,for instance the surftechs,people say go a few inches shorter and slightly narrower but if in the specs it gave a figure on the 1-10 scale you could match perfectly,pete
Here’s the whole paradox of what about to happen here…
generally speaking, pupe’s surf worse with use/age…
a FW will likely surf better with use/age.
George, here’s the thing that is ‘good’ about testing surfboards (as compared to other sports eq) - with surfboards and an experienced rider, its fairly easy to test and identify differences and subtleties during same session ‘relative’ testing. Im talking resolution and sensitivity wrt feel. Point is: the human body is an incredibly sensitive instrument, w/o going into vast detail, we can appreciate when a knat lands on our skin, we can feel it, even tho the knat weighs practically zero. Now consider you can train someone to be even more hyper-sensitive to test gathering. You know where Im going…
I normally make my boards quite similar and I can easily tell subtle diffs, even tho test days can be days or weeks apart.
I also agree with you on bias and subjectivity (blind, DB) - a pre-built in bias will quickly destroy the objectivity of test data. Look no further than the stereophile who just purchased a $1,000 patch cable…yep he can hear the difference cuz it validates the purchase…(OMG, there are people out there who believe they can hear the diff of a amp’s power cable…wow)
I think it can be real easy to over-complicate Oneula’s testing. Im with SharkC…take two boards, two surfers, same session, low crowd factor, high wave count, have them swap boards in the lineup thru the session and you’ll basically know. Too bad the finning on the boards arent identical.
Oneula, I’ve said this before, I think a board’s weight is a very critical factor. Therefore, for guys who like to control the output of the board with speed and precision, all things being equal, the lighter board will win. Its not even close. However, the heavier board might win in other situations (bumpy conditions, diff style, etc)
what about the ding test as well?
to be fair
durability is 50% value and desirablity in a surfboard imo
how many of the boards can you jump on ?
Paul
that’s a good point and one we already sadly see with our current favorite “magic” boards. We know they won’t last the year under our current abuse.
the paradox is that durability and flex don’t make you a better surfer where’s as properly thought oout crafted and design fitted to your needs does. Also alot of water time in epic and non epic waves in varying equipment like heavy logs, light epoxys, drivey guns even sponging and bodysurfing is really what leads to better surfing performance and the understanding of weighting and balance.
anyway off to conduct some non scientific testing for you folks if I can stand up that is…
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the best blind test other than disguising the surface like they do in ski tests is to give it to one of the not so smart blahlah rippers here and don't tell him anything and let him have a go at it and let you know how it went.Especially if the guy was born and bred on a hawaiian made potato chip his whole life…
Only problem here is particularly w/ the blahlah rippers is they only know how to surf one style and resist/hate any other approach to a wave. They likely would not even find a boards strengths and advantages if its deficits were in the middle of “vertvertvert”. Think if you gave an excellent “potato chip” for testing to a dedicated hull rider…or vis versa.
Okay results from preliminary test run 1: G vs. F
1.5 hrs on each board
Scale 1-5
5 = Excellent
1= Poor
When I pulled up this morning my favorite right was going off so in lieu of chancing it with an unknown commodity I grabbed the #1 contender Chandler’s 5-fin fish for it’s first real test in some juice.
The board is 6’2"x21x2 7/8" Clark PU sanded finish
After an hour and a half I figured I better go in and get the contender before my arms went out. Nothing like 200lbs of fat paddling a 6’2" after a 3 week layoff…
The contender
6’0"x21 1/4"x 2 5/8 EPS Epoxy
Preliminary results
Actually I think this a good pairing cause they are pretty similar in size and shape. We weighed the firewire today and it came out to over 7lbs with fins. My brother’s 6’11"x21"x2 1/2" home made Lowes EPS hull came out the same weight with it’s single fin on. Pretty amazing that we can beat Bert in lightness with our stupid methods and hack way of making ugly boards.
Anyway…
weight G=3 F=4
the Griff way heavier haven’t weighed the 5-fin but you can tell there’s a significant difference.
paddling G=3 F=3
they both actually paddle very similar eventhough the Firewire is a tad smaller but its EPS versus PU
Both suck at paddling for a guy my size also there something about a big fat nose pushing forward versus a needle chip nose slcing through the water
duckdiving G=2 F=4
actually the firewire duckdives better than the 5-fin eventhough its EPS maybe it’s the wood rails
sitting level G=3 F=3
both about the same about an inch above the belly button
waves catching G=3 F=3.5
again about the same with a slight edge to the firewire
performance G=5 F=2
this is the demarcation point
let me preface it by saying that I notice that all light boards tend to skip around and get a wobbly as they are feeling every bump. In this case the firewire is no different, she wants to go all over the place and you really have to concentrate to keep it in the groove. Also this is a twin with big *ss fins and she acts like a twin doing the wobbly pivot versus finding the sweet spot and staying there. If you keep her moving she’ll go all over the place But my Surftech flyer can do the same thing with a bit more drive off the tail.
The 5-fin on the other hand doesn’t seem to have any real performance limitations. Move up and she’ll pump and trim like any other board. Step on the tail and drive or pump a turn and the afterburner kicks in and she’ll take you past what ever you’re trying to avoid or through anything you trying to destroy for the aggro types. What ever you want to do just think it and it’s done. This is where the dance somes into play.
The firewire seems to have alot of potential and I think once I get used to having all the vibrations and bounciness coming up through my feet I can get my timing down to work it more smoothly. Being light you can really whip it into some weird positions but it’s more like a momentum losing sliding whip than it is a carve with acceleration that you feel with the 5fin. I hopped a bit floater on some big white water but it just slid off the back versus powering through 20 feet down the line like the 5-fin or my other boards do.
More testing is needed but I think this is the best and most fair pairing
Tomorrow I’m going to take the Surflight 6’9" minigun out and maybe the gemni cause it’s that good. I’ll give the fish another go as well to try and figure her out in order to equalize the testing some more.
And no it didn’t make me surf like Taj nothing will.
But there’s a guy out here (Isaac) that beat slater in a heat down in Australia when he was on the circuit that I might ask to try the board out.
He’s about as close to a shortboard pro that we have in the lineup although there’s a couple of local shapers that frequent our break every now and then I might have take a look at it…
bottomline no contest (at least right now)
performance wise chandler’s old fashion approach to board design blows this out of the water
But I’m not giving up, like alot of things new designs take time to understand and figure out… And this is quite new and absolutely looking if I can add that in as well…
more to come
Hey Oneula,
Good report. I’m waiting on your other reports.
I don’t know if you’ve said this before but are you goofy or regular?
Cheers,
Rio
Wow. That bounce and detachment seems to translate to a lack of drive. The 5 fin seems to have
the drive. Do you think more weight is better for the given conditions or is it a flex/absorbing thing?
I ask this because I tested kind of similarly built board and found this to be true as well.
Did you find yourself not executing a turn fully, like you had to check yourself mid-way through it?
Rio
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I don’t know if you’ve said this before but are you goofy or regular?
Regular, old, and injured
not the best good test pilot
Plus1
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Do you think more weight is better for the given conditions or is it a flex/absorbing thing?
light boards seem to work better for light footed surfers which I am definitely not. BK and Terry F are more the style of surfing I nothing fancy just speed and big hacks no wacks if you no what I mean. I guess I need to find a wacker or one of those straiight up and down guys…
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Did you find yourself not executing a turn fully, like you had to check yourself mid-way through it?
Yup because of the way it works you lose alot of the flow and this is why I’m not such a big fan of ultralights cause you lose it in the last 1/3 of the arc unless you add another turn in your head as come around. The difference is that on my best boards you initiate it and it comes around no questions asked allowing you to prepared for the next move which is good for us slow guys. With these lighter boards you need to worry about finishing the turn completely before you can relax and start on the next move so you need to be faster and lighter on your feet. Alot of the problem could be the shape because I have had more success with a more chip style design with these light boards than those with large frontal surface areas like fishes or funboards. A really tightly pulled in nose and slight bump in the tail for release seems to work much better with these designs. Attached is one of the few designs I’ve ever made out of EPS Epoxy and wood that I’ve really been happy with performance wise but it’s no 5-fin.
As for another observation, another one of my short boarding hot shot old guys was just raving this morning about son’s new 5’11" Lost SD2 made in XTR he said it was the best styro-epoxy he’s ever ridden and he bought a couple Surftech Byrne’s last year and currently rides a JS PU. He almost bought a 5fin after riding mine but he’s backing off of fishes as he’s trying to get back to riding his chips for winter…
Another friend just got his new 6’8" handshaped clark and was enjoying every minute riding one of the last clarks shaped here. His shaper went through alot to find one
As far as the role of flex in performance
tomorrow my surflight minigun in some juice should provide some answers cause its more than twice as flexible as the firewire.
So there’s alot to all this new tech
just what’s going to work and what’s not in the current age of confusion is the question.
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and have Bill Barnfield look over , surf, and comment on the firewire .
Aloha Ben
Mark Price knows I am interested in checking them out
good stuff , THANKS Bill ! [and welcome back , good to hear from you ! I hope you get one to try out soon ]
hi again Bernie , and thanks for that report !
1] to be fair , can you re-do this test with griffins “5 finner” as a twin , with the same fins and positioning as on the firewire , please ??
2] I have felt four [and 5] fins giving more ?drive / holding power? than my twinny setup on the bushfire fish , also
3] can a lighter person repeat this test please ? [say , someone around 150-180lbs [no offence mate , I’d just like to hear and see how THEY would surf it ]
4] does switching from a longer board and single fin old school style to a lighter board thruster / twin fin style come into play here too, perhaps ? [another reason why I would like to read / see fotage of how , for instance , a 25yo 160/170lb thruster rider would adapt / surf the ‘Firewire’ [in particular] differently . I remember reading in ‘Surfer’ how Daniel Thompson hopped on a twin keel , surfed it like a thruster first time , because he had no bias to tell him "that’s not how they are meant to be surfed ".
5] the floatation / belly button test …WHERE would the water “come up to” on a lightweight like me , I wonder [155lbs] … and how would the firewire paddle for ME , as someone 45lbs lighter ?
…do you know a few “light” Hawaiians , who could test it ?
6] what size was the ‘test surf’ …head high , 1’ overhead , 2’ overhead , etc ?
surface …bumpy , smooth ?
wind …offshore , none , sideshore , onshore ?
7] REMEMBER that chart that you were going to use ?
[or , are you writing those findings separate to here , to be “tabulated” later ?? ]
8] what about HARRY ???
WHEN will HE get to surf it , so you can film him , too, please ?
…cheers mate , keep the tests coming !
ben
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what about the ding test as well?
to be fair
durability is 50% value and desirablity in a surfboard imo
how many of the boards can you jump on ?
word! plus Also a wax test must be added to be fair… these new-fangled boards need’n to be waxed right?
if it don’t bump it’s lump!
Ben
I agree with ben’s #1. Love to see a comparison on equal fin grounds.
because , to be fair , if your personal preference / bias was 5 fin ‘chandlers’ [?!] ,
a 5 fin firewire might be the test board for the firewire-employed swaylockian to send / sell you , Bernie ? [maybe you can do a trade-in , next time you are in cali again ?]
cheers
ben
Well…
…comparing a 5 finner to a 2 finner is equivalent to comparing a single fin to a thruster. Measure fin template area of the 5…its like pushing off a solid wall. A better comparison would have taken the center fin off the 5…a bit more apples to apples.
In good solid waves, the lighter board will ride on top more, heavier one will ride lower…most will prefer the lower rider…I know I would.
Repeat the tests in some smaller weaker surf and you’ll likely end up with different results.
I gotta confess…would bert sunova have made a board like that with those dimensions? I doubt it. Shoots, Im riding 2 inch thick boards now and can go thinner…who woulda thunk it. Could be questionable marketeering. Hopefully they’ll turn that enlightenment corner. OTOH, guys with the play money like their dimensions…even if it kills them…and you gotta make the sale…
…so on goes the continuing compsand paradox…oh what fun to be in one of those closed-room pissing contests.
So far…Apples v. Oranges…comparing the Surflight to the FW is worse yet…Potato v. Watermelon. Design and finning still rules.
But it sure is interesting reading…keep up the testing work Oneula.
Cheers