The Firewire Fights or Board Porn gone bad (Warning Picture Heavy)

Firewire claims their different materials will make thier boards better. As you can see a well tuned design even in low tech materials is better.

I agree. But it also depends on what an individual’s definition of better is.

Here’s my own personal take:

Lighter & Stronger = Better

(accels) Faster & Looser = Better

You get the idea. I have new found respect for pupe…I think it does what it supposed to do, and does it well. Problem is, for guys (like me) who want a really light board that lasts, pupe aint the choice. Pupe is fine for more traditional glassing schedules and for places like HI, where the waves are heavier, faster and often bumpy/choppy. If I lived on the islands I dont I’d be yearning for a 5 pounder, but over here, they are hard to beat.

In summary: Better is relative.

Looking forward to seeing the fin mod…mahalo.

When i made this board for bernie i was not selling or promoting a certin material or process just a well designed board. I can make Bernies Firewire board work better with better fins.This is a better working design concept and they would benifit by working with designers that can make pu pe’s work this well and take it to the next level with their construction.For yourself i could easily make my board in Marko foam-epoxy any weight you wish.

"Aloha Privateer

I might be up for that? I will talk to Jason (Resin Research here) and see if he wants to help do a duplicate board in Styropoxy. I am pressed for time at the moment (what’s new) but maybe I could squeeze this project in. Would be fun to take a fresh look at this again.

Give me an idea of the length, width, thickness for a basic Tri Fin that Swaylockers in Hawaii would feel comfortable on to try out and give feedback on. Maybe something more conservative and cruisey that everyone could try.

BB"

THAT is <span style="text-decoration:underline"><span style="font-style:italic"><span style="font-weight:bold">GREAT</span></span></span>, Bill !

a hawaiilocks board …yeehaaa !!

YOU making "identical " boards in poly and in eps / epoxy would make a test like this alive , I reckon !

taking it a step further …

imagine three sets of boards …

thrusters

fish

other [?6 finners ,?5 finners , 4 finners? , singles?]

one set made of polyester / polyurethane combo ,

the other set made of epoxy / eps combo .

This would be a worthwhile , practical test for ALL the pro shapers here to undertake ,

and report back on , I reckon !

[… just my thoughts …]

It would also be swaylocks surfboard design forum being just that , and a really interesting “think tank” [only not endless theory , thank god …it would be a “test tank” [practical] , actually !]

…if only us amateurs , who perhaps have more time available to muck around with these designs and materials , had the skills of the pros , though , eh ? [dilemna]

 cheers



   ben 

theres not much point really though

haveing a fued if you will. in materials

its all a surfboard at the end of the day

ben the best thing about composites is that they are very hard to ding or break

and can be made any weight heavy or light

a good board is a good board!

epoxy composites stay good boards for a lot longer and are hard to break

isnt that enough!

why compare apples to oranges?

all you need to say is if you like it or not

Quote:

YOU making "identical " boards in poly and in eps / epoxy would make a test like this alive , I reckon !

no point!

different materials equals different board

you design a board with the materials in mind

composites are better if there a bit thinner

so there is absolutley no point to make one the same as a poly

cause its gunna be different

and most likely stiffer

so dont even bother

cuz everyone who builds composites knows what the result will be

the tester will have been riding polys his whole life

and after two waves will say exactly this

“it is too stiff, too light or too corky”

give a thinner/wider composite to a open minded person

after surfing it for a few weeks will tell u something else like

“works great, hard to ding, no pressure dents”

and they will be saying the same thing about the same board 3 years later

instead of looking at two halves on the beach

get it !

to have a custom board by a good designer in any materials is a great.

and a generic design is just that!

and they cant be compared fairly on any basis

other than subjective and personal preferences

I can make Bernies Firewire board work better with better fins.

Amen to that brother!

Always been a proponent of fin optimization.

Do you think the board design, particularly the bottom/rocker, is suited for 5 fins? Or does it not matter? In other words, is a 5 finner like you made for Bernie very design specific or is there some ‘cross-design’ wiggle room there? Mahalo.

I use a lower rocker for all my rail fin designs than my thrusters, with no concaves to keep what rocker there is curvy and free feeling. I cant see what the Firewire bottom& rocker are but do see there can be improvement in the fins , a major component of a complete design.

There’s a point silly… to ride more boards.

When I was at Hydro Epic we had three boards made, with identical dimentions, in different materials. I took all three out on several occasions and got a feel for the materials without the shape of the board creating an additional variable.

The boards were all 7’8" Brewer Cali Hybrids with exactly the same dimensions. Board #1 was a Hydro Epic - hollow, carbon/kevlar/aluminum honeycomb/epoxy, it weighed about 8 lbs. Board #2 PU/PE and weighed about 11 lbs. Board #3 was XPS/Epoxy (XTR) and weighed about 10 lbs.

The hollow board was much more responsive and could turn on a dime, but it had a rougher time in the chop, and it would want to drop in a little later on the takeoff since you couldn’t build the same kind of momentum when paddling. The PU/PE and Epoxy boards surfed very much alike - if I took them out at individually I’d think they surfed the same. They looked alike surfed alike - they epoxy board was a tad lighter (I could feel that) and flex was similar. After a few months the PU/PE board was beat up to the point I gave it away, and the Epoxy board still looked new - with about the same amount of time and abuse.

I totally agree that you need to build the best board you can with the materials in mind, but by doing a measurable head to head, you get a clearer picture of what the materials characteristics are. I don’t think a comparison of dissimilar boards in different materials will tell you much.

In fact we built at least a dozen Hydro Epic 9’1"s using mostly the same materials, out of the same molds, but with different flex characteristics. That was a huge eye opener. We could individually control the flex of the top and bottom from nose to tail.

The stiffest boards surfed the worst. They were unresponsive and doggy. They corked more and were really hard to get into turns.

The softest boards would initiate turns easily since they flexed and presented more rocker, but they were hard to get out of turns since they would stay flexed. The first turn was great, then it was like riding a wet noodle.

The magic boards were the ones that would flex into turns, then snap back quickly. This would cause the board to generate speed by loading and unloading - like a snowboard or skiis.

I’ve owned probably over 500 boards in my 42 years of surfing, and I’ve surfed tons more - in all kinds of materials and technologies. I think you can make boards that surf great out of almost anything as long as you design them to exploit the characteristics of their materials.

Another thing I’ve learned is different surfers like different kinds of boards. I have a magic 9’2" (Brewer). It’s the best longboard I’ve ever ridden. I’ve loaned it to friends that don’t like the way it surfs. I’ve ridden their boards and wonder how they can get any pleasure from them - total dogs (to me). Just look at what Roy is pushing - not for me… different strokes.

The Firewire technology is great. If you try one you don’t like, it’s not because it’s a Firewire. It’s just not the right Firewire for you. With the right shape, weight, and flex, I’m sure you can find a magic one. They are certainly strong enough.

Yep… that was me… potbelly and all. That was the first Brewer minigun to come out of that mold. Since we had no swell, I jumped behind my friends wakeboard boat to get the board wet. It’s like surfing kneehigh Malibu, but the wave goes forever. Also since you don’t have to paddle in, you can ride really short boards. I have one board that’s 4’6" and about 3/4" thick. It feels like you’re riding a skimboard, but it stays in the wake.

I was one of the founders of Hydro Epic, but I haven’t been involved with them for the last couple years. I have nothing to do with what they’re up to nowadays (although I still own some shares of stock). They haven’t updated their website for quite a while. I have seen shots of guys in the mags on their boards lately though. Al Merrick is almost ready to launch his line of Hydro Epics, so his team guys are riding them alot.

Whatever you think of Surftech, the guys that work there are core surfers. Randy, Wingnut, and crew spend as much time in the water as anyone else I know of. Lots of pros are riding their boards these days. I haven’t yet found one of their shortboards that works for me, but I’ve got a 9’6" Yater that works great.

fair enough

i just hate it when disscussions degrade

into epoxy versus poly debates

but im sure we are all over that bs

sorry bernie

i saw brewer xtr 6 6" yesterday, pinholes and all temperature guage.

it was a really nice board and they guy (late 40s early 50s)

was kinda ripping it on it actually

Except that fins aren’t meant to be stood on. It’s like the old finger squeeze strength test, means nothing relative to when it’s in the water.

Go surf and push it, that’ll flex it.

If it works, good. If it don’t, try a different board.

so… its comes full circle,you see i asked Bill to make two boards that would match riding characteristics this theory might take into account lots of variables rails thickness rocker ect… but one thing comes to the top right away quality shapers will always rise to the top regardless of materials used it is their knowledge of the craft that you pay for and all the latest greatest materials wont make one bit of difference, in the right hands it might give you a new feel ,better well thats the debate, longer lasting ?how about the simmons replicas [soild wood durability mega ,is this the reason to use epoxy? than wood is far superior] surfed in the surfer journal surfing looks pretty good to me.looking forward to tinklers new boards coming soon another possibilty but i got to say surflight has the most out of the box design also surftechs new t2 may give alot of people a run for the money.the computer boards will never repeat never match a custom cause if your lucky your shaper might make you a board that matches your surfing if he get a chance to see you ride.it may not be the slater model you thought was you but it will probably be the best board you have ever had.Bill if you do make the boards i am sure there would be plenty of guys to buy them regardless of materials. i still believe we have not gone out of the box materials is not the grail the shapes of the future will look nothing like we currently ride then again did you have a look at those simmons replica rails?somewhere somebody is grinning ear to ear or laughing at our passionate persuits.its all good, aloha

…yeah , I think you may have read read a bit much into my post there , Paul !

[no “feuds” involved , and none intended either ]

" YOU making “identical " boards in poly and in eps / epoxy would make a test like this alive , I reckon !”

…all I was saying is I would like to ride two versions of the same surfboard design [ie : length, widths , wide point , rocker , shape , etc ] , made out of both materials… thinness for the eps , whatever.

I certainly would love to ride an eps / epoxy version of a couple of my boards , for instance .

cheers

ben

now Bernie …

back to your test rides , please …

cheers !

ben

yep

sorry ben

im a grumpy dick sometimes

reading all this with great interest.

can’t help but think “wow”, amazing how far this group has come in a few short years.

I remember logging on for the first time and reading about super blues and dimples on the bottom and cut laps.

now this group debates perimeter stringers and compsands and where to get just the right balsa and vac bags…

very steep learning curve.

and I am standing on your shoulders right now as I finish up my bamboo compsand.

no wuzzas ,

I hope you get some smoking waves soon Paul ! [The weather’s turned here today , so I’ll probably be the grump soon ! …mind you , I DO have plenty of fin panels to lay up at the moment ]

… have you or your crew done any fresh videoing lately ? [I’d love to see any stuff of those days you posted shots of a while back !]

cheers

ben

nah my video heads are gone dirty

pity cuz its gunna be pumping this weekend

i might duck it in to the photolab for a onceover tomorow

and ask the wifey if i can lend her stills camera