The future of Surfboards thread...

General Discussion
41

I have never appreciated you guys more than I do now!

I opened a handle over on the ERBB for a little fun.  Went on a couple of threads, and tried to get it a little more “Swaylocky” if that is a word.  Tried to talk a little design theory.  What makes a rail work, etc… 

It was really eye opening.  Almost nobody cared!  It’s all about, “my board is cool 'cause it rips”.  They don’t understand why it works, only that Griffin, Coil, Roberts, or Channel Islands are really Cool.  Its like a Religion!  And when you try to explain to (or convert?)  them, there is so much resistance!

So how do you try to convince to that guy that he should go to a hand shaper, and have a discussion on what he could be riding, and get a board that no pro is riding in a video?  You might as well as try to get the guy to go home and do his math homework! It isn’t going to happen.

Hand shapers have to accept that they are artists in a world of poster art.  A few connoiseurs will appreciate their hand work, but most “surfers” won’t.

What is really unfair is how little a good shaper gets paid!

I build houses for a living.  A door hanger, replacing an Entry door gets about $300.  Takes about an hour and a half.  You have to be good with a planer and router.  Be pretty accurate, and be able to scribe the door to the opening, and get it right.  The same skills that it takes to foil a surfboard.  But the door hanger is getting paid three times the money!  If you aren’t shaping boards for the love of it, it is a really hard way to make a living.

So back to the shaping machine debate…  Hand shapers are under appreciated artists. 

42

I have a different take on Zachary’s essay and it does relate to surfoboards too.  I’m going to talk about acoustic guitars because electric guitars have too many variables to try and isolate construction methods with tone and playability.  I’ve been playing for a long time and have strummed hundreds of different brands over decades.  I don’t want to compare crappy imports with handmade classics.  Lets look at two of the biggest and arguably, best, brands of acoustic guitar makers; Taylor and Martin.  Taylor has the most sophisticated, mechanized construction of anyone in the industry and Martin has the most sophisticated handcrafted construction of anyone in the industry.  No one would argue that Taylor guitars are not fantastic playing and sounding instruments as are Martin’s.  Their price points are about the same. However, any good player knows the difference; Taylors always sound the same.  No matter where you go to buy one, they all sound the same (within each model).  There are magic Martins though. If you are buying a new Martin, you need to shop to find the magic one to your ears.  The “crappy” Martins still sound/play as good as a Taylor, it’s just that the magic ones are soooo much better.  And that is the variability of human hands.

I submit that it is the same with cnc vs. handcrafted boards within a given “model”.  

Also, Taylor won’t make you an asymetrical with a twisted neck and carbon fiber sound board but you sure can have one made by Martin if you are willing to cough up the $$$.  No one at Wavelength is going to make you an asymetrical longboard with a flex tail but Bob Mitzven will…

43

How many here would be hanging doors for a hobby? Seems to me that if you can carve out a life where the only work you have to do is shape surfboards (what most of us do for fun during our free time), then you are pulling a pretty good scam! People should be happy just to be able to surf and shape - how could anyone feel like they deserve to get paid a lot of money to live that lifestyle!!! There are an elite few who do get paid big $$ for their shaping work, but an average joe cranking out boards should be happy to wear flip flops to work, not complaining about deserving more…

There will always be craftsmen building unique and beautiful things. It will just slip more and more out of mainstream and more into a niche realm. Guitars were given as an example. I have a cheap guitar and cant play worth shit but its fun to have and mess around with. If the only option was to buy a handcrafted guitar, then there is no way I would have one. If someone truly values a handcrafted guitar, it is available…you may be able to get one from a hobbyist or build one yourself for a reasonable price or fork out a load for a master’s build.

Surfboards have stayed custom longer than anything else because there are so many people willing to live on slim margins since they are rewarded with the surfing lifestyle. who needs money when your life revolves around the surf? if you decide that you do want more money, do something more profitable…the surfing community is not going to lose anything (because you will still be making boards in your free time if you really love it!)

44

and the cnc is just a tool. if you like to design but are not a sculptor - its a great tool to translate your ideas. if you like to design as you build (like me) then do it by hand. the more physical time and effort an individual spends on a project, the more of that person is invested in the project. like i said before - there is intrensic value in that. but there is also value in precision and a computer is more precise than a human. neither is better than the other - they are just different. put your money/effort towards what you value and let others do the same.

45

Theoretical musings aside, this is what the future looks like right now

 

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46

I have never made one cent building surfboards or fins, though I had delusions of being able to do so in the past.  My brief foray into the surfboard manufacturing world,  mid to late 90’s, left me with a bitter taste in my mouth not only from the toxicity of the process, but from the giant yet fragile egos involved.  I know nothing of the current industry and will intentionally remain ignorant of it.

 I have not bought a surfboard since '01, have not built a board since '05(HWS), and my only forays into surfshops now, are to buy wax.

But I am super glad I learned what I did, when I did, from who I did, and I am still learning a lot, through this forum, mostly from those who build and design from the love of surfing and the mediums which allow us to have more and more fun through design and technology and experimentation.  But I also love my soft tailed soft railed nose riders and will have no mercy for those sacrifice rail length and wave catching ability, at a longboard wave, with their short flat wide round  stumpy multifinned offerings as they wiggle their way toward shore on the leftovers.

It is a shame to see craftsmanship taking a backseat to maximum profit at any and all costs mentality, but that is the world’s current business model, and the zeitgeist for the younger cell phone generation who likely cannot concieve that it was not always so.

 It is not my battle, I tell myself, disillusioned, as I refrain from driving a cell phone Zombie off the road in a fit of rage at society’s narcissism.

 A few years ago a friend was looking for a new board, asking my opinions and posting links to various models being offered by a prominent label.  To his way of thinking this label could do no wrong, already had everything figured out, and who cares that they are essentially CNC machined pop outs if they work, and have the all important logo. I told him I could not help him then.  He got one of them, still rides it, praises it, but now wants to go smaller, cause Kelly and the WCT are all riding smaller.  Pump pump punt!! Whoopeee!!

It is a shame when skills are lost. 

 Is it worse when they are lost because nobody cares to teach them / share the process any longer, or nobody cares to learn them because modern machines and technology have taken over the bulk of the process? 

47

Barry, 

There’s no prizes for doing things the difficult way. The consumer is more interested in the quality of end product, not the process in which the end product is made. There are CNC designers out there that are artists in their own right, they just do it differently to you. 

PS You dont see too many architects drawing house plans with pen on paper these days either, doesn’t mean that they can’t design a good house.

48

we have a winner.

49

Something like this?

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50

Barry, thanks for starting this thread.

Sure its easy to ignore the points you make, to trivialize, to sidestep the real issues by arguing the virtues of the machine, but what struck me as most poignant about your original post is a desire to protect and perpetuate for future generations of surfboard builders those human facets of the creative process that computerized machines* cannot reproduce: joy, artistry, passion, respect for the traditions of craft, and maybe, reading between the lines, the character-building value of skills that are achieved only with sweat and tenacity.  There are no prizes for doing things the difficult way, but it would be a shame to let that blind you to the rewards of mastering difficult skills.

Its a conversation worth having, a topic worth considering. These are very human issues that run deep and transcend the economics and politically correct popular trends and platitudes of the moment.

BTW, great videos, extremely professional, you are part surfer, scupltor, graphic artist, and mad scientist!  So glad you are a part of this forum.

  • I refer not to tools used by humans to create, but to tools designed to replace humans in the creative process
51

For the record I appreciated your posts on the erbb and I hope you’re not going to abandon the place just because you didn’t get exactly the response you wanted.  You’re a builder.  How many homeowners do you meet who know how to layout and cut stair stringers or who even know what a stair stringer is?   Most of the guys in the Design forum are just surfers, not shapers. Or at least not serious shapers (like me).   That doesn’t mean they don’t appreciate someone dropping some knowledge on rails and such.  They just might not have much to add.

52

Thanks Huck.

This internet thing is a funny bird.

Peolple analyze what you write and spin it into what they think is true.

I am a board builder.

Been doing so since I was 13 years of age.

On a personal level, I really don’t care if you use a CNC to shape your boards.

Just don’t call yourself a shaper.

You are a finisher.

My aussie mates call you a scraper.

I have been told my electric planers are no different than a CNC machine.

Just another tool.

Well. I can shape without them as well.

Can they?

The hard truth is that without a CNC machine nowdays,

most surfboard companies would fail.

Nobody knows how to be production shapers these days.

When I worked for Gary Linden (16+ years), I was one of 6 shapers working to keep up with orders.

To me the ultimate test as a shaper is to produce a board that looks and feels the way the owner/shaper want it to be.

And doing it to his standards and suceeding.

Lots of people with opinions here.

But no photo’s to back it up!

I let my boards do the talking. (most of the time until some gets me going).

I hope you can see my passion for building unique, quality surfboards. I would gladly put my skill set up against any other so-called surfboard builders. After 30 years of doing this surfboard thing, I’m not the new kid on the block. I hope it shows.

I do believe to be an expert in design, development and the hand shaping, you must partake in every phase of the surfboard manufacturing stages. I am dedicated to bringing the most functional and modern shapes for any wave conditions and all types of surfing. I oversee production every step of the way from shaping-to-the fine sanding, assuring that your Barry Snyder Designs Surfboard will be of highest quality both in shape and performance.

"Old School Craftsmanship"and “New School Technology”.

And yes tradition runs deep within my veins. That is how I was taught.

I did not learn the fast way by watching You-tube videos of how to (fill the blank with whatever you want) videos.

I learned by doing, watching and listening to the guys who did it better.

Where has to joy and artistry gone?

"Its a conversation worth having, a topic worth considering. These are very human issues that run deep and transcend the economics and politically correct popular trends of the moment."

This can be reversed.

If every person who has passion in their soul, would just take the time to explain it to others, they might do the same.

To me, I’d like to consider myself the John Conner of the surfboard world.

Who’s that you say?

He was the main character in the Terminator movies.

The lead rebel against the machines.

RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE!

Oh yeah, I hand-shaped 20 boards last week.

 

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53

A lot of people misinterpret and misuse the word “share” .  Some seem to think its cart blanche to steal intellectual property at will , without even asking…they’ve even reached the point where they take offence at anyone who doesn’t  “share” , as though everyone has some new age obligation to share everything they’re doing and keep nothing to themselves. Collaberations with like minded people are a great source of advancement for all , but they need to reach a conclusion before there’s really anything worthwhile to share. People who wanna eat all the ingredients before the cake is baked , are nothing more impatient gluttons…they don’t care who goes hungry , as long as it’s not them…(lol)

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Dear Jedi Masters,
I come from a family of craftsmen. My dad is pretty good, he builds instruments, from dulcimers to harps, in his spare time as a hobby. Being exposed to the idea of building functional art from an early age, I find what you guys are writing inspiring. I have kids of my own and I think to myself, how can I get them to appreciate building things with their own hands. I was rewarded when my son saw me shaping my first board , he wanted to try so I gave him some safety gear and a surform, and Let him hack away at a small piece cut off from the rail. He is five, I felt pretty good as a dad. I think the process would work similarly when you talk to some new guys , walking around take them into your shop and show them around.

That is what happened to me. I was walking around some touristy place with my family, and ended up walking into this guys shop, who turns out to be a Yoda of shapers.You couldn’t necessarily tell by talking to him because he was really nice and spent an hour talking to my family and I and let my kids play with his dog. We had several conversations over thee following months, and told my that the interesting thing about the surfboard industry is the backyard shaper. It got me curious, and here I am. I have the greatest respect for this guy. Point being is that is how I came to appreciate the craft of making a surfboard.

On another note, what would it take to have a magazine for surfboard builders. I think that is the one major thing missing. I can find some interesting articles in TSJ about design here and there, like an interview with mark Richards on going from one to two fins, but I never see anything like the content on here. Yeah that would be nice, just saying.Being I only have one board under my belt, although it has the weight of two boards:), I am not qualified to do anything of the sort. I would definitely pay for a subscription.

Cheers,
Jason

55

I do not dispute the quality that handcrafted work can offer nor the skills/passion of master artisans.

How many can afford master-crafted instruments or surfboards?

Should musical instruments and surfboards be reserved for those with wealth?

Landfill Harmonic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXynrsrTKbI

“One does what one must in this imperfect world.”

56

I agree that copying anothers work with out credit and royalty is stealing.  But if there is a challenge to keep up, like Huie’s 40 year cocoon, Or Mike Daniel’s “This is the future” with an invitation to match it. Then it is fair. 

If Moses says, “The promissed land is over that hill”, he is asking the Israelites to follow.

And as far as there needs to be a conclusion before there is anything to share, you better turn off your computer then!  Early computer software was written collaboratively by a bunch of guys doing it for fun.  It wasn’t until Bill Gates and Microsoft took everyone else’s work and threw a patent on it that it became private!

Or like Sun Microsystems made Java open source for everyone to work on.  That’s hardly stealing. It is an invitation!

So if you ask first, and are invited, no problem, right?

57

Barry’s initial post has two different complaints.  One is labels and CNC operators stealing designs and cut files and getting away with it in the market even when they have no abilities to handle a planer; and the other is the replacement of planers and ghostshapers with CNC cuts at almost all stages of the industry.  

The lack of ethics and honesty in the business is always something to lament because what it amounts to is people profiting off the margin between what they say they do vs what they actually did do.  No matter what we do for a living we should all empathize with that aspect of Barry’s complaints.  And I thinks it’s fair to say that on this forum 100% of us do empathize and agree with that aspect of his lament.  

Meanwhile with the other “losing our soul argument” we keep getting further and further away from how the industry started - a guy working in his garage, by himself, by building a few boards at a time from beginning to end for himself and his friends. Instead, now we have specialists who - while they may love what they do - are engaged in board production as their livelihood and who are doing it in part for the money.  

If you want to break down the industry model over the last 30 or 40 years what that model really consists of are workers who may or may not be capable of doing it all due to their prior assignments going on to specialize in one aspect of the process to the exclusion of everything else.  And the reason they specialize in a niche is because it’s more efficient to work that way and they can better leverage their skills and their tools and their workspace that way to get more done, which in the real world also translates into producing more units and making more money than if they were doing it all by themselves on every single unit.  

The prevailing “industry” model from the 1970s on has been for shapers to leave the processes in which they aren’t as fast/efficient or as capable to people who are in that groove as a result of their own focus.  Nobody is building 10 boards a week all by themself;  leastwise not on a steady basis.  

From the original baseline of the guy who actually did do everything from beginning to end this specialization arguably does represent a compromise in the “soul” factor of the individual artisan doing it all.  In and of itself that compromise has been judged a reasonable one to make on the basis of the improved quality and consistency and the improved price of the workproduct.  A guy who does nothing but laminate all day long can be expected to get pretty damn good at it after a while.  Same for the guy who specializes in the gloss/polish process, or the airbrusher, or the fin maker.  But by definition, the more you specialize in one step of the process the less of that entire workproduct you are completing yourself.  

So if the machine is effectively moving that benchmark in specialization beyond its previous point that obviously has it’s good points and well as its bad points when compared to earlier benchmarks that were comprised of fewer compromises.  

 

As for lamenting the decline of the desire to improve and master the craft we have a couple of the pros on this forum who routinely disparage the backyard guys for even trying to scratch their own itch.   Not for having the lack of talent or skill, mind you, but for even trying to scratch that itch.  Most of these backwyarders don’t even sell their work so there is no economic competition factor involved.  We are no threat to your livlihood or to your art or to the prevailing state of craftsmanship that exists at the professional level.  All we’re trying to do is improve our own processes for the sole purpose of emulating what you guys do as best we can.  So the desire to improve is definitely out there even if the economic incentive isn’t.    And if the economics are not part of that motivation then that brings us around to other motives that may arguably be a lot more virtuous than selling more units.  And that brings us full circle to the many pros, including Barry and ther other pros on this thread, who have those same values of always striving to do their best and not make compromises.   So in that regard we should be finding a lot of common ground.  

 

The prevailing ethos on this forum demonstrates that no matter what happens on the retail side of the surfboard industry there will always be builders who are diligently trying to master their processes.  I don’t think that desire to improve will ever atrophy or die off.  Not while surfers view surfboards as another expression of their own identity.  

 

 

  

58

Mike is from The year 2025. Comes back here now and again to spank us non time travel beings. 

59

The thing that turns me on the most about shaping is watching the blank come alive. It gets skinned, thicknessed, and rockered but visually doesn’t change much. Once the curves are put in; rails, foil etc, it becomes something animated almost. To me, THAT is the magic moment. It turns from a slab to looking like it is doing ninety miles an hour. A machine would rob me of that experience. If it is solely about the end product, then who cares how it got there? The process is equal to all other parts.

Production shaping and making a living off of it is another ballpark. I do it for the feel goods.

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Mike D is “the man behind the curtain”.