The Future of Surfboards

General Discussion
81
Quote:

i thought it was a costume party??? someone acting like a jackass …

after reading your thread on stoked with swaylocks , sounds like you already used his robot …or did he make you do it by hand ? so you followed him around the party with a camera …cyber blackmail on swaylocks …it keeps getting more interesting all the time …

dont worry holly that could be anyones ass …

regards

BERT

Greetings Bert,

Follow someone around with a camera at a Party? Delbert isn’t Lance Burkhart!!! or is he? He kinda looks like him but not.

C’est ci Bons is a surf spot.

Delbert is someone I surf with occasionally here in WA, US.

Cyber Blackmail???

Bert Could you clarify what you meant / meant by your post???

p.s. Delbert, Thanks for the compliments on my orange board.

-Paul.

82

that was an attempt at humour , i figured you knew delbert , coz he helped with the board or inspired it…coz i know he made one similar not long before …

i mistook your comment at the end of your posts , "see what happens when you party naked "

delbert was only telling me about a party a few days earlier …

so it was a misguided attempt at putting 2 and 2 together …

i thought you meant , i got pictures of you partying naked , so better let me use your machine …

i didnt realise , it was a signature at the end of each post …

misunderstanding on my part , but also an attempt at failed humour …

regards

BERT

83

the robot gag was great… reminds me of the time a friend of mine bought a laser pointer and started using it for “shaping”. after shaping he would flash the laser pointer on the spot where he would put his signature… then he would scribble his name and then add “laser accurate”…

84

Everyone has their right to an opinion, if shaping machines scare you and you’d rather shape your own or have your boards shaped by someone with the same ideals as you then good for you. I have had shapers tell me that a hand shaper can evolve his shapes easier as he is not bound to change the machine settings etc etc.

I know that with this Machine, from what I have seen directly (boards made for me) is that design is progressing at a rate quicker than ever before. WHY? because the shapers are actually able to experiment accurately. I mean accuratley not therabouts. Hold constants, change one variable at a time. This machine is not like other machines, it is designed not for mass production but to make better surfboards one board at a time. Not on a mass scale.

Add to this that the paying ‘tight as a fishes butthole’ customer will not pay for things that take extra work on a board, so shapers with waves to surf and families to be with will understandably make what is required for the money they are paid. Talk them out of channels, or anything else. If the price of a surfboard had increased along with beer or cigarettes they should be about $1800 AUD instead they are $650 and even then thats too expensive for most people. Stand there with there $200 Nike shoes and tell you its too much. Any wonder it makes sense for a shaper to use better ‘tools’ to make boards better value for money to keep these tight fisted customers happy and coming back so that you can make nothing from them twice.

And thats what this is, a tool. Not evil! Good tradesman will use the best tools available to make the best quality product. Full STOP! Here’s an analogy though, if you can’t play guitar picking up even Jimi’s Strat won’t make you sound good! Even the APS wont help you if your designs do not work!

I am riding a quiver of boards all shaped on the APS, one of them i have replicated 4 times over time… as far as I know I am yet to grow any circuitry on my body or developed a fetish for Nickel Cadmium batteries.

85

I agree, the machine is just a tool either the APS or other types, all have certain limitations and abilities. It’s sad to see but, this is progress. From my personal experience with every generation there are less younger apprentices willing to take up arms for the fight. The machine guarantees that your customer get your best shapes possible from the best day shaping and the best design of your conceptions.

Contrary to what others make you believe on this bb, using this new method actually takes just as much time or longer than hand shaping initially. What they don’t tell you about is blank prep and having the correct and crucial rocker template and blank set up times, programming CAD, editing programs, modifying etc. all take up mucho time. Like anything of quality, the time and cost upfront hopefully justifies the consistent quality. I have seen the actual preparation times and to do this correctly is very time consumming. I was shocked at how inexpensive all this prep time costs in relative terms to other machining services.

Shapers that have not been intitiated or have direct experience seem to have misconception about the technology. Most just think that you just load a blank and push a button. So much more goes into it to do a quality job.

86

i can design a board in aps quicker than i can fill in an order form …

ive seen 10 different boards come off the machine in an hour , dont compare other woeful contraptions to this …

regards

BERT

87

sure designing is a cinch on a simple design cad. easy on the front end, but there is alot of other preparation time on the front end to save time on the back end is what I’m saying. Easier and more consistent once all the preparations have been done. Things like having correct rockers take time to set up with blanks mfgrs. What type of “woefull contraptions” are you speaking off?

88

Bert,

No biggie!!!

Unfortunately, I had no input from Delbert on this project, just the inspiration and push he gave me to experiment with fin setups and his advice to get away from the materials I am using now.

No hard feelings.

I wasn’t sure what type of humour it was and wanted to clarify.

Take it easy, I really enjoy your work and hope to see it in person one day!

89

ive seen other machines which take a lot longer to set up , to the point where it makes more sense to use them for a production run of exactly the same boards …

and others where by the time you lock everything in , you could have just as easily used your planer to profile the blank , but the grom who works with you , his time isnt as valuable so he uses it anyway …

other machines that make great copies , but your stuffed coz you need to do a handshape before you can make a copy ???

ive seen monstrousitys so big you need a warehouse to put it in , and a suit of armour if you want to stay alive and be in the same room with something that looks like it should be on the set of the texas chainsaw massacre …

ive never seen a machine that has the ability to shape my boards , without having to comprimise my construction somewhere …

so more from my perspective than most others , this machine is a miracle …

regards

BERT

90

I have seen some pretty rinky dink machines that the fixturing is the weak link can’t even cut stringers, some owned by some big names. From single gantry types that will fit in an average shaping bay to the large dual cutters type. The key to quality shapes seems to be in the framework, fixturing, and hardware. Vibrations and unwanted movement will transmmit deflections into the shape being milled.

Most of the quality milled shapes here in California have come from the production type set ups. There is one machine I know of owned and run by the owner which is similar to the same set up as the production type but is able to run singles or doubles. The framework is so stout that most of the tooling and fixturing was fabricated on the same machine using the same programs that are used for cutting the boards!? It’s quite impressive. Owner seems to pretty low-key about it. From what I hear, one of the a major importers has inquired to have a few machines built. The owner had no interested in selling out.

From what I’ve actually seen and from what the owner/operator has mentioned was that the majority of the shapes milled are from proven shapes to have digitized and replicated and refined through each generation, as opposed to spending time designing a shape and hope it was worth the time designing on the CAD. He also mentioned something about on the CAD doing some “wierd shit” when haveing to make the actual toolpaths and this is just the nature of when you have create a surface.

Once the magic board has been digitized you can then change dimesions of the acutal shape. There are also differing methods of scanning/digitizing also. One is a complete total scan of the entire surfaces and the other is a plot method.

I would love to use Miki’s CAD program to see if I could cut boards here using machines set up here. From what I’ve heard and experienced from other surfboard specific CAD program is there is quite abit of discrpencies between what you see on the screen and how the actual shape turn out. Also tool paths can do some strange things.

But, like I said there is more prep time than what you see. By the time you are cutting the board all the work has been done.

91

I’ve seen the future and it’s not shaping machines. It is adjustable molds with a silicone type liner that will be coated with color/graphics and then injected with an expanding foam type substance. You will literally get a pop out board complete with artwork/colors all molded in. The “shaper” uses Virtual Gloves on his hands and passes them over a holographic “blank” much like Tom Cruise did in minority report. The Virtual Gloves are “pressure sensitive” and take off material as you put more “pressure” on the virtual blank. The computer interprets the motions and adjusts the molds, which are comprised of millions of little “pins” that are magnetically raised or lowered. The mold is coated with a supper glossy UV resistant clear urethane. A graphics panel is preprinted and stretched over the mold surface and thermo-formed into place. The mold closes, injected with a self skinning material that is dense on the outside but composed of large open cells, which create a superstructure on the inside thus creating ultra stiff and super light boards. The stiffness can be adjusted by adjsuting the injection process. etc. etc.

The technology is there right now!

Have any of you ever seen a computer cotrolled welding robot? I saw one abotu 15 years ago. It’s really amazing. once you set it, it creates pretty near perfect welds. But look at the popularity of shows like American Chopper or Monster garage. These are custom welders. The robots can’t build a bike like they do. Nor can they build a board like a human artist can. If you make a crappy board then you’ll be run out by the machine. But if your boards are works of art or even super fine, your good. What would you rather ride, an animated factory built Honda, or a Westcoast chopper?

As far as the Homedepot thing goes there is a small hardware store near me that is thriving because they do things a HD can’t or won’t. The little guy is born out of the big guy everytime. Look at Starbucks. Huge restaurant conglomerates pushed out the “coffeeshops” until you couldn’t find a decent cup of coffee w/o going into a restaurant. But now…theres a coffe shop on every corner. Custom will always be there because it will always be demanded. Thank God we live in a place where we have choice!

92

Modeling a surfboard in 3D is not for rookies using ‘free’ or even midrange CAD systems. You have to use best in class surfacing tools and have a good understanding of curvature continuity, multiple trajectory sweeps, gaussian curvature analysis, and a whole lot more.

Also being able to easily manipulate the model in 3D so you can accurately visualize the shape is absolutely essential. Displaying 2D curves and cross sections is not enough because you will never see the flow of the shape. And you need to be able to show the customer what their board looks like and hand them a drawing with some overall dimensions before you start building. If you are limited by the functionality of the software or your ability to exploit it then you just aint gonna get it right.

And then comes the programming which is equally challenging. You’ll need to be able to specify basic drilling sequences, simple parallel machining passes as well as more complex surface isoline tool paths with a library of tools to machine different areas of the board. You need to be able to play and verify the NC paths on the screen.

To cut things you’ll need a high speed and robust production capable CNC machine and then you’ll need to develop some simple but effective holding methods to make sure things don’t move around while you are machining. Your machine must be capable of machining more than just boards. Then you can use it to do tooling, fixtures as well profile and thickness skin materials and a whole lot more.

The more dedicated, complex or overly tooled your methods are, the more you are locked into doing things a certain way. That kills innovation and new ideas. Flexibility and efficiency in your design and manufacturing methods is key to letting new ideas come out quickly and with minimal effort.

Most people equate such a setup with a large volume production facility making thousands of boards. There is a place for small low volume custom shapers who leverage a highly flexible automated system with best in class front end design capablities followed by highly efficient manufacturing methods.

-Hein

93

Its a new era in surfboard construction. We just visited the new Ron Jon custom surfboard production facility located directly behind their Cocoa Beach shop. Its a totally new method of producing boards in a more efficient and more environmentally safe way. It works like this. When you order your board you order from a computer terminal one of a vast variety of shapes available from many of todays top shaper/designers. All the shapes are pre-scaned into the computer and held in memory on the hard disk or CD. Once you have made your selection a technician clamps a correct size closed cell polystyrene Òe-cellÓ blank (which is produced on premises using a laser preshape machine) and your board is shaped by computer as you watch from behind a viewing window. The shape is computer perfect and takes just 15 minutes to finish.

After the shape is completed, fin boxes are installed (the holes are actually cut and the fin angles set during the shaping process) using a hot epoxy glue which sets almost immediately.  The blank is then sprayed with a light coating of spray contact cement  and an  epoxy ÒprepregÓ cloth is set into place.  Prepreg cloth is cloth with a very high viscosity resin already saturated into the fibers.  This resin is such high viscosity that it is essentially dry.  The whole thing is then covered with a shrink wrap bag and placed into an oven.  The ovens heat ÒmeltsÓ the resin in the prepreg, which saturates the fibers, sets the resin while the shrink wrap pulls the whole package together leaving a high gloss finish. 

After 30 minutes in the oven the now nearly finished board is pulled out and allowed to cool.  Next the shrink wrap is cut off, fin boxes are trimmed and detailed, fins installed and your new board is complete and ready to ride.  Start to finish production time.......90 minutes.

Environmentally all the polystyrene foam scrap is recyclable, there is no excess resin used when using prepregs and the prepreg epoxy is solvent free so there are no emissions from the glassing process. When you think about it even the removable fins are recyclable. The whole board is produced almost waste and emission free. Quite a difference from todays standard board.

Now before you go running off to Ron Jon to order your new high tech magic shooter there is something you should know.  The date for the opening of this board building facility is sometime in the future.  You see, I sort of made this up.  But hereÕs something to think about.  All the materials and techniques that I wrote about above are available today.  The foam I talked about is presently being produced in factories all over the US.  The laser preshape machines are in existence right now.  Todays shaping machines are not quite as advanced as written above but probably will be within a few years.  Spray adhesives, prepreg cloth, shrink wrap and hot epoxy glues are all widely available. So why doesnÕt this process really exist?  Because it will take thousands of dollars to develop these ideas beyond the idea stage.  But this process, or one similar to it, will exist someday so get your money ready.

I wrote this about ten years ago while working with FL Tech on a composite project that used many of these materials and techniques. The reality of this seems much closer today then when I wrote it.

94

Nice vision, Greg!

And you know your materials and processes very well. A reader of Composites Fabrication, no doubt. Ron Jon should hire us as consultants and we’ll have it running by the fall. My consulting rate is $250/hour plus expenses, what’s yours?

-Hein

95

I actually read another mag called high perfomance composites. Website is www.compositesworld.com. $250 an hour sounds reasonable. I’d work for RJ for that. Can you imagine how much money a deal like that could generate… why the franchize rights alone would make us rich beyond our wildest dreams…

96

hein , once again youve reminded me im in the wrong job when it comes to income …

if i didnt get major job satisfaction theres no way id be dealing with smelly dirty chemicals and dust on a daily basis , and my work enviroment is sterile in comparison to most …

hein what part of the world are you in ??

is your specialty composites or machining ?? or both combined ??

i was impressed by your logic and use of the machine on the vac forming thread …

as i read various other posts i start getting the feeling ive got a spy cam in my work shop or something …

im only willing to show so much …

but i find it interesting that those with the experience and technical knowhow all seem to go down the same logical path …

on other threads there is talk about industry leaders , who they are for what reasons …

but when i see the skills of all these different individuals that post here , whether they be engineers , or able to interface computer programs with machinery , or the ones with composite fabrication know how , or even composite know how and how it relates to the performance and interaction of a surfboard to a wave …

the person who gets all these minds together and puts them to work will surely emerge as the next industry leader…

all i do is work with composites and understand how to make them work to get high performance and know a bit about surfboard design , so it wont be me …

but id be curious if someone takes up your offer hein …

that would surely show the dedication to the industry required …

greg nice vision , you forgot the computer generated graphics which also gets preformed into the laminate before its sandwiched onto the core and baked …

im sure holly would be familiar with everything you said …

ive made fins with a very similar method and have been itching to make a whole board that way but the cost of going that way was always out of my reach , even tho its a very realistic concept …

maybe the turn around time is a bit ambitious but other than that its doable …

doesnt it suck that salomon hired the wrong guys when they blew 12 mill to get the blue bubble …

imagine what we could have done with cash like that ??

for that sort of money what you just said would be the reality and there would be at least a dozen outlets around the globe stamping out custom high performance boards even as we speak …

nothing happens unless we imagine it first , i always knew there was a purpose for daydreaming , my teacher always said daydreaming will get you nowhere …

i say she was wrong …

regards

BERT

this guy reckons your onto it …

97

Good idea Bert… if we had 12 shapers across the world sharing a label and pooling a small percent of their annual profits for sponsoring swaylocks and silly things like advertising, sponsoring and legal fees you could conceivably do very well.

Anybody that wanted to join would have to be familiar with composite construction… if all 12 were set-up on a versatile router, they could share board designs and developments via email. If you don’t have a machine we’ll buy it for you to get you set up.

Everybody would be expected to do R&D… gotta make sure we stay on the forefront. Greg, can you cut us a deal on the RR?

SoCal: Keith? MrJ? Kenz? Glenn?

Northwest: Hein? Holly?

Hawaii:

Florida:

Northeast US:

Oz: Bert?

Norway: Havard?

England:

Spain:

Japan: I’ll take it (but I’ll share)

Africa:

Brazil:

That’s 12. Come and get 'em. I’m writing the contract, no seriously, I am. Ownership of the company will be like a board of directors, with each regional shaper having an equal share. The board would own your own contract.

cheers!

Brennan

edit: where are Benny and Sabs located?

98

What about profit sharing or lack thereof…some markets will sell more than others. What about startup costs…machinery etc etc?

How many machines needed?

Which product…test market…Hein seems pretty well setup and offers a low resistance path…

99

Couldn’t agree more.

As I see it, technology like the APS 3000 is one of the best chances yet that backyard/small-scale shapers (including all you naysayers) have of competing against the coporate and offshore, cheap-labour-market players.

When people talk about a board, they usually talk about how well it goes etc., which is largely a function of its design aspects, or the quality of craftsmanship. Using a machine to shape an individual/custom design isn’t going to have an influence on overall quality of construction but it will help genuinely talented designers progressively refine and improve their ideas. The progression/innovation element is retained relative to the cloned shapes peddled by the big companies.

Anyone who wants a hand-crafted object of beauty will buy one, and good luck to 'em, but they’re buying something more than a simple board. Those looking for a surfboard are looking for an effective realisation of a shaper’s design ideas. Why should they worry about how that shaper chooses to produce that board (materials discussions aside) so long as their general expectations regarding quality are met.

Trying to ‘see the wood for the trees’ strikes me as a good plan here.

Just my (layman’s) opinion and I’m sure its not new.

100

I really like the way this thread is heading. Without some sort of vision like this nothing would progress.

Bert, you’re right about certain companies wasting money in the wrong direction, and you’re right about dreaming, cause if you don’t dream, how do you make dreams come true? I’ve done it my own way all my life and highly recommend it.

If anyone’s laughing and thinks this is a pipe dream (pardon the pun), it’s not me. I would love to see this happen, even if I have no involvement.

Good luck everyone.

Oh by the way, if you’re looking for an experienced technician, QA/QC and ISO experience, then keep me in mind. (And I know a bit about boards and fins too, if that helps with the job interview)