The Future of Surfboards

General Discussion
101

meecrafty, good questions! The markets that earn more than others will have to work harder than other markets so logically I think people should keep what they earn… the label only exists at minimum shared expense to serve the needs of innovative shapers that aren’t in a position to wake up the masses.

As for start-up costs… speaking strictly for machinery, cnc set-ups will be funded by the label but deducted from a percentage of your annual profits at low to no interest depending on local inflation rates…

As for how many machines or facilities are needed… 12 seems agressive to start, but may be the way to go… somewhere closer to 6 is probably more realistic.

As for product… each board member would be expected to keep some stock sandwhich boards on hand for those customers that don’t need/want to wait for a custom board, but the stock line of boards should be flexible to local demand… if you are swamped with custom orders for your local innovations then you have a few options…

1)let the label will help you out (if you want) by hiring additional staff and mangaging their payroll, taxes and insurance needs, etc. You would have only have to keep track of their hours for the label to cut pay (also decided by you)… everyone would be expected to follow some sort of 6ft rule. 2)allow the label to hire additional staff and/or upgrade your machinery 3)open another facility in your region to be managed by you or the label, your responsibilty, your profit, your decision 4)allow the other board members to help with your custom orders (probably won’t help to decrease local demand)

As for details of construction method… there are sooooo many possibilities… it’s for the board members to decide. Do you think 12 different shapers could agree on one technique? Maybe not, but I think so. This would be the magic behind running a label of this nature… being able to manage the overall manpower and supply to keep the stock line moving while allowing you to be innovative with your own construction techniques and have time to shape the more rewarding custom boards is what it’s all about. If you only wanted to make customs, you could have another board member ship you the stock line. The hope is that the innovations of each board member will be such a big succes that the board would consider adding their designs to the stock line. No restrictions on innovation. Innovation and flexibility is what sets our label apart from the rest.

What do you think meecrafty? anything and everything is negotiable… it’s a label built for shapers, by shapers so that they can concentrate on furthering shaping and enjoy a common label in order to get the word out to the masses about better construction techniques and locally available custom sandwhich boards.

Wildy, with the demand we can realistically expect, we’re gonna need you to move near the coast where you belong.

cheers,

Brennan

102
Quote:
edit: where are Benny and Sabs located?

I’m in Northern CA, as is Mr.J. Although for the real deal, we should get Bob Miller out of the Boardworks mess and into this group building customs. He made some molds for BW, but he makes - and George Greene glasses - some truly amazing composite EPS/PVC/Epoxy one-offs. They do 'em just like in Bert’s thread about bagging, no wood, just light core & high-d layer. The PVC is vacuumed & baked on with glass, then its finish/outer glassed with epoxy…Bob’s own longboard is a dead-flat 9’8" with the tail thinned down to almost nothing that weighs about 10 lb. And it flies, flies, flies.

103

Benny,

this is what it’s all about - bringing in the right people from every corner of the market… I had heard about the great work Boardworks was trying to do… didn’t know there was some source for angst. Maybe we can help…

domo arigato,

Brennan

104

Just browsing through the Composites World link GL posted and came across this picture of a epoxy impreg machine for doing wet layups of snowboards. Seems like this could directly translate to surfboard construction. The big rolls of glass you always see above the glassing stands, just add one of these in-line and pull your glass out pre-wetted with the ideal ratio every time:

Never summer’s custom-built impregnation machines apply epoxy resin to fiberglass 0°/90° mat for wet layup laminates.

Source: Never Summer

http://www.compositesworld.com/ct/issues/2004/December/687

105

Anyone interested in the RP-3000 Prepregger?

106

There’s actually more to the vision than written. For instance, the designs held in memory are the property of the shapers themselves not the company. The shapers get a royalty every time their shape is used. This creates a real competition within the company to produce really good designs. The royalties the shapers get now for moldeds is a royalty on something that is perhaps not up to date and changing the design involves changing molds, prodution times and shipping from far away locals which is all expensive. Not so with this. Also there is a scaling mechanism in the program which automatically makes many sizes of that design available. This almost provides a custom aspect. A truly custom aspect is not hard to program either. If the same computer program is used in all locations then the same shapes would be available everywhere. Also since the designs are just software it would be possible to include many more shapers than the molded guys presently use so the competition would be much more intense. This also provides a surf shop with practically every shape anyone could want. You know, I’ve actually walked into surf shops that stock literally hundreds of boards and thought, “I wouldn’t ride any of these… not one.”

You would start to see shapers advertising their most recent shapes rather than the foam and resin hardgood they sell today. No more three month waiting periods for customs. And damage in shipping? Thing of the past.

Shapers would also be able to start real development programs to push designs to new levels. This isn’t possible today because running the business and producing the product takes all their time.

The foam and other materials are available everywhere so that’s no issue and if you actually went with prepreg that would have to be worked out… but there may actually be better ways to do that part. Bert is right about 90 minutes… I just threw that into the article for shock value. 24 hours wouldn’t be a stretch though.

Then there’s advantages like not carrying a board for travel. Just order one over the computer system and your new board is waiting when you arrive. You could even have the shops charge a fee to have the board built and then take it back at the end of the stay and sell it used. Shapers could start demo programs so people could try shapes before buying. Promotional tours with touring pros would give a whole new dimension to the hum drum life of the present day surf shop. Touring pros also don’t need to travel with immense quivers anymore. And if the surf is expected to get huge, then your only 24 hours away from having the correct equipment. Plenty of time in today’s world to be properly prepared.

In this vision you also have a real surfing expert at each location who knows shapes and design and can help people make intelligent choices when ordering. Today most surf shops just have some ditsy teenager behind a counter that knows nothing. “Aaaa… miss… do you think a single or double concave would fit my surfing style?” To which she replies, “What’s a concave?”

I see that something like this would be a MAJOR coup for a retailer such as RJ. You’d virtually corner the local surfboard market and people would pay a handsome price to get a board built in such a manner.

107

Karl Marx said that capitalist products would become so mass-produced and devoid of quality that people would revert to individual artisanship.

Another vision for the future is to give the creative power of making surfboards back to the people. Foam cores that are less expensive, have a smooth finish and are ultra light, that dont need glassing for strength, offering easy and immediate (on-site if desired) fine-tuning to an existing shape. Incredible!

See The Surfer’s Journal, “The Inventing of Stanley Pleskunas” by Chris Ahrens, Volume 12, No. 3 - Summer 2003

108

Greg,

   I really like the concept. But, let me play Devil's Advocate for a second. With copy righted designs and residual royalties what degree of variance will be allowed before it's someone elses design. We have an aweful lot of shapers out there that are "inspired" by others designs. But, have their own subtle variation.

Second, if you’ve got one system setup in each area. When the circus comes to town, isn’t that system going to be pretty tied up getting 40 some quivers together. And, since we all know how seasonal board building demand is, aren’t you really still going to really upon alot of worldwide shipping to balance the demand inequities.

Third, I love the prepreg concept. But, it is created in rectangualar sheets. So, you dou generate a substantial amout of waist with each trimming. Albeit, it is still much cleaner than mounds of polyester building up on the floor.

I agree the industry is trending towards CNC routed blanks and builders are alligning themselves into co-ops. But, I think there are some pretty big financial and intellectual property rights issues that will need to be over come to approximate your vision. Oh and the part about getting expert information from employees, I think the big box retailer models have proven it’s more profitable to hire non-expert employees. The place to get good information is here on the internet or from your local shaper. And, he’s still going to be buried finishing all those new boards.

109

Yeah right - you are basing your model on mass production industries. There’s nothing wrong with that, as it tends to drive the high-end customs up in price. But you can also have the effect of driving them out of business. If competition is configured as a means of “bumping” out the status quo of molded boards through machine and vacuum bagging technology, just remember it’s a big pond with a lot of little mom and pops out there and when your SONY style company of “chosen” members lands that cannonball dive… there’s going to be another Tsunami victim thread here on Swaylocks, but it will be for the victims of Wal-Mart SurfCo.

Or do you figure going around to various board companies with your perimeter stringer blank and epoxy program was fair warning?

Will your ultimate excuse be that the sales people aren’t supporting the sales effort of customs over molded boards?

110

Tom,

It’s a vision… No vision isn’t without challenges in order for them to become reality. How many times did Tom Edison fail before creating the light bulb? Thousands. Challenge is just part of the process.

111

Oh, I completely agree. I was just pointing out some paticular challenges that will need to be addressed. I’ve spent far too much time dealing with intellectual property rights. My brother is in the initial stages of purchasing an (APS3000?). I’ve done a lot of work with boat builders who utilize vaccume bagging, prepregs and autoclaves. You know the kind of work we do with CNC’s. And, during the eighties I managed La Jolla Surf Systems which at the time was the sole distributor for Channel Islands and Rusty Surfboards in San Diego. I would hold weekly board design seminars with all our shop employees. But, it still takes a real passion to get the message. I applaud the vision. If there is ever any thing I can do to help make it a reality, just let me know.

And, while we’re envisioning the future. How about filament orientation? Since we’ll have CNC tables that can 85% finish a blank. How about adding some features? Like laying out load pattern sensitive fiber patterns that altenate from carbon in low/no flex areas and aramid in the areas you want flex, but need durability. These fiber bundles could be laid down pretensioned with the epoxy impregnated as it comes off the spool. Kind of like the technology they are using for string sails.

112

Hello guys- time to wake up. CNC is just another tool. It’s not a magical fairy thats coming to save all the handshapers from a life of grueling manual labor. Sure it’s going to help out the production side of surfboard manufacturing out a bunch, but in reality, who’s got the orders? Make lots and lots of surfboards, and make lots and lots of money right? Sorry, won’t work. Surfers are cheap, they always have been and always will be. Why? Because they are surfers you guys! Real Surfers don’t have money! They don’t even have jobs usually! God how many of you guys work in the industry? Judging by this thread, not many… I deal with so many guys that sit there counting out hard earned one, five and ten dollar bills to pay for their sticks. Groms with no money, 16 year olds that sweep the floors of the local shops. Every one is looking for a deal. It’s a sign of status in the surfing world if you get a deal. Deals Deals Deals… it’s a part of the industry. Quarters, nickels, dimes, that makes the difference in the surf industry not hundreds or thousands of dollars. For a shaper struggling to make it on his own in an industry where the average profit on a board is around 100 dollars, if you aren’t doing the glasswork yourself, every extra dollar spent on having someone else do the shaping for you (CNC) is money out of your pocket. Physically shaping the board is something that you get paid for. If you eliminate that, all you are doing is running a business… you might as well be selling razor scooters. So you say well… since the shaper isn’t wasting all of his time hand shaping, now that shaper can do more boards… Oh really? Where are all these magical orders supposed to come from? The tooth fairy? If everyone is increasing their production, the price will come down even more folks- thats basic supply and demand. And if everyone increases production, then there will be even less orders for everyone, especially if the average joe can head on down to the local CNC-Mart and have 30 scaled copies of his favorite ripstick milled. Do you really think that isn’t going to happen? That the CNC machines are only going to end up in the hands of “Ethnical” people, people that won’t scan whatever you bring in? Yeah right. If you look up “Surfboard Industry” in the dictionary you will find that the word used to define it is “Unethnical.” People are already scanning others shapes- I’ve seen it happening with my own 2 eyes. Custom epoxy construction- different materials… same industry people. Who cares? So what if boards become stronger? They have to, there’s no way around it. But it’s not going to change sh*t. Surfboard builders are building what people are buying- the market defines the marketplace. I could go over to my shop and knock out 5 new custom sandwich boards- the labor would be a lot more for sure, then throw them on the racks next to the polys- and guess what… they would F**king sit there… forever- even if they were the same price! Now you would say hey- but people are buying Surftechs… Yes but they are buying them for the same reason that they are buying Merricks, Rustys and lost… boards. Because those are all examples of well run Businesses. They advertise- have hot riders, lots of pages of magazines bought up and lots of boards given away- it takes money to make money. Business is business, and the surfboard industry is a hard place to survive. -Carl P.S. I really dig all the Epoxy stuff and what Bert and a handful of people are doing on this forum- I just wanted to play devils avocate for a moment!

113

As to the SONY makeup of this, it is a little like Surf Tech but a bit more American. I can see the Walmart implications and the negetives for sure and I’m not sure this should even be done. It’s still just a vision. But I would also have some serious reservations about calling today’s foam and glassing infrastructure mom and pop in a traditional sense. There is also an aging concern within this industry in the US right now that could be (actually is being) adressed by automation.

What’s NOT a vision is walking through Surf Expo with the future (or a future) in my hands and seeing a very positive response and not a monetary response. I’m not sure that all I got was lip service and as with any project do you make the nessasary investment based on that? My feeling is that most surfboard builders are not composite engineers and wouldn’t even know what they were looking at or understand it it hit em over the head.

This is one of the ways those of us who do know have been gagged all these years. Knowledge filters down from the top and if the top is giving out misinformation designed to stop advancment in the sport or if the top is as clueless about advanced composites as the audience then you have no chance of ever pitching better product. This is very much how we have ended up where we are today.

Our predasessors were very knowagable about composites and material engineering and most of this knowledge has been lost. The more advanced thinking today is coming out of the last 20 years of windsurfing which passed surf technology like it was standing still… oh wait a minite… it was standing still …and still is.

114

What nobody has addressed is; sure the sailboard market is huge, but you can go out on lakes and inland waterways and rivers and beaches where there isn’t a surf spot and conditions that just start to be good when “surfers” paddle in. The growth of the industry paralleled the “beginners” that jumped into a sport that can be done on a much bigger landscape.

Surfer’s are confined to much smaller and DIMINISHING areas of useable breaks that require optimum tides, swell and bottom conditions for a successful session. Throw in the Blackball flag and some trigger-happy lifeguards when it’s time for the spongers to “surf” - we’re havin some fun now, boy…

So everybody buys that shaping machine with the one shaped every five minutes mode, and learns bagging… where are you going to put all these newbies? I hope not at my break, in Newport, but I’m sure that will be the first beach-head test of the retro-Kraftwerk generation. I can’t wait for one of these agronauts to be given an indestructible surfboard and I bet he won’t think twice about launching it Kamikazee style into the mega crowd of well-wishers watching his cutting-edge performance techniques. Been there, suffered through it…

Ahhhh…now I see why there will only be a chosen few, the customer base can’t grow much past the numbers of the Gidget generation onslaught, unless you think up new ways to share the “waves” ie. surf area tickets. Now’s the time to start thinking about man made reefs and wave pools if you want to take advantage of the predicted bulging market. That would make it easier to sell more machines and equipment to the existing craftsman base as well!

115

The problem is only clothing manufacturers are making any significant money off of surfing. And, their target market doesn’t actually surf.

116

Blame it on your shorts? I think what we’re really assuming is that the Chinese won’t start there own web-site and sell those $150 surfboards direct. OUCH, and double OUCH. “Mom, can I get a surfboard instead of that pair of $500 Oakleys you OK’d?” I don’t think they are standing still like we as an industry did for the last 25 years. Also I think RF is just aching to whip this clothing optional “custom” surfboard industry once and for all. Karl Pope already “warned” us how vulnerable the industry is…

117

You wanna know who is going to get f**ked? Ever read about what happened to Harley Davison? Ever wonder where Honda came from? You think that it isn’t already happening? That there isn’t going to be cheaper asian popouts that are exactly the same as what RF is selling? The writing is on the walls folks. When RF gets stabbed in the back, and there are 20 asian companies producing popouts just like RF’s boards… you think that pop-outs aren’t going to be associated with crap again? I can’t believe that everyone doesn’t see the business aspect of this whole popout craze- Randy is in the middle. Do you guys realize how huge Cobra is? That his successful plugs are being built by other shapers? Randy takes the plug from the shaper and hands it to Cobra- they produce the board, and RF markets it. Soon someone is going to cut out the middle- it’s business after all. And sadly, that might really hurt the surfboard industry. At least the american side… know of a lot of custom sailboard/small time sailboard manufactures? Hmm sailboarding used to be really big… what happened? -Carl

118

Funny I was just reading an article in Modern Application News about how R&R Cycle are useing MasterCam to produce aftermarket products for Harley Davidson. Quality, Reliability and Performance have grown this company and revived Harley Davidson from the brink of AMF dispare.

It’s usually the pressure from competition that makes people really improve their products.

119

Aftermarket Industry? For surfboards? Somehow I don’t see Kragen-Surf Parts Stores popping up to Sell Surf-spoilers and Spinning-tip fins and those kool light show thingies for the bottom of your board… maybe, maybe not. More typically, it will be a broadening of the industry that services machines and computers. Also the training school industry will take a momentary leap as those early adopters need to be shown the “way.” Of course the writers of software will have to produce updates and patches - first ones free - but after you’re in the program your machine will be begging you for his software update “fix” and firmware boost.

120

You don’t…Fin Systems, Leashes, Traction Pads, Nose Guards don’t count as aftermarket items?