The Future of Surfboards

General Discussion
121

Ok just a minute.

I would definitely buy neon lights that shined out from under my board.

Just wait 10 years, Velzy, Harbour, Yater, Edwards, Rice, Carson, August…they’ll all be dead and nobody will have to worry about who they’re ripping off. Issat what anyone wants?

Jeeze I’m in a weird mood. Just all this mass-production, whos-shape-is-whos stuff makes my head spin. I don’t buy any board that wasn’t made specifically for me. But if it is made for me, and its what I want, I’d buy it. Simple as that.

The economies will drive not just the materials but the labor. When you have to buy pollution credits with your 5 gallon bucket of poly resin, it’ll be cheaper to buy epoxy. Bingo.

When Sfoam.com has local shipping at each surfable coast in the world - how far off can that be? - EPS will be more common. Again, bingo. Customs everywhere, EPS & epoxy.

When bagging & heating are faster (less labor $) than poly glassing, bingo yet again.

The future will be here with these 3 developments - or reasonable facsimilies - but not before. For now, we buys the old stuff, we buys the pop-outs, or we makes our own.

Dang good thing Swaylocks is here, cos I don’t like the first 2 choices. :slight_smile:

122

Aren’t fins more of a complementary market, purchased at the time of initial board purchase? So you feel safe? My statement about the Chinese figuring out the industry “needs” and offering it direct, will affect you as a surfboard fin supplier as well as the board manufacturer. Face it, it’s just a matter of time before there’s a fin made (molded) in China, or don’t they have the tooling experience yet? What’s lacking? Do you hand design your fins or do it on a computer? Do you use, exclusive to you - software? I heard they we’re at the last trade show with a “cheap” surfboard, bet that sounds mighty tempting to the surfboard optional clothing stores. Next year a line of “Chun-King” fins with their own patented box? Why not? Hmmm… those surf shops, could they sell their clothing lines without at least one “custom” board and high-tech fin package in their shop? Do you need a “backend” factory anymore? As we are morphing into the new world economy, so does the market itself writhe with the internal upheaval…

123

You really don’t know how wrong you are. We’ve been Ripped Off Hard. We’re constantly battling foreign competition.

It started with molded ends for leashes. Our company made SurfMore’s leash end molds and developed the bonding method. Admittedly it was an evolution from something Balin did. But, they even came in and congradulated us on our method. A number of people went off shore for their leashes. But, currently one of our customers is pulling down bigger numbers than ever before. They attribute the quality of our parts and the cost efficiency of of the offshore sewers to their success.

Soft surfboard fins…China knocked us off so hard they even duplicated our flaws in the molds. But, they make them out of cheap material. So, even those that have their entire boards assembled in China come to us for their warranty replacement fins.

Sandal Hanger Wax Combs…I developed that idea and offered it to the rest o the sandal industry. I never thought it would be that big of a deal. So, we didn’t patent it. We’re still making on the order of a few hundered thousand a year. But, millions are being made offshore.

Yes, they methods I’m using for generating fin files are proprietary. No, I’m not using proprietary software. And, yes the only way we stay in business is keeping one step ahead of the competition. Unfortunately, we can’t be focusing in all directions at all times. So, we shore up one product line and then focus on the next. And, just make sure we never cheap out.

The above mentioned are only a few of the many times we’ve been copied. But, I think they illustrate my point.

124

Another vision is the building of surf breaks in obvious areas for recreational use and built by local or county rec departments. This certainly isn’t a new idea but the part about using rec dept. money for funding may be. I was involved in Little League Baseball for a number of years and we got our little town of Indian Harbour to build us three brand new fields for the tune of about 1 mil. Upkeep for each field runs an additional 20,000 per year. Now think about a town like Huntington… surf city USA, who has miles of beautiful beach with perfect close outs for much of the year. Think about just how ideal this area is for artifical breaks. All the attempts to build breaks have failed in the past because of lack of funding. Just how difficult would it be to approach the city counsil with a plan that would actually put Huntington on the map. The initial investment could be made by the rec department and the money could then be recouped by a parking lot with meters.

There is a legitimate need for this type of recreational facility one that goes beyond most other Rec Dept needs. Overcrowding at surf spots is an obvious problem and surfing isn’t getting any smaller and it’s for sure not going away. The fact that it could actually add $ to the city coffers in the long run makes it a real possibility and if done correctly could even enhance environmetal habitat.

125

If I’m wrong, how come you’re so quick to rip off your khakis and show me where the enemy has scarred you? Do you have your own mold making facility or do you ship overseas and maybe that’s where “they” got ahold of your sacred fins for copy purpose… If you can’t keep them out of your business, how the hell are we going to be able to start-up a “custom” business model that will compete with a “status quo” that is mostly outsourced, on all levels of the manufacturing and soon to be marketing spectrum?

Greg, what was that? Do you think we could get some offshore world class reefs in Surf City (reality meets hype?) Hmmm… now that would be good for LOCAL business. Instead of golf course designers there would be reef designers! And so on and so on…

126

As a matter of fact we are a custom mold making facility. And, our products are distributed world wide. And… a big and…the devaluation of the dollar has tilted severeal projects in our favor. I’m willing to share our experience because I know we are winning. It’s a fucking hard fought battle and we loose often. But, we are winning in the long run. And, you might criticize me as an optimist. But, I know we(general we) can be fat and lazy. Or, we can get down and serious about making real improvements. Glitz and glitter work to get attention. But, shit that works wins out in the long term.

127 
Howzit tom, I just looked at another new fin system that has a patent pending that has the capibilty of moving the fin forward and back like yours and also can change the fin angle. It's really a simple idea that I can't believe nobody else has come up with plus it will accommidate fins from other systems. In fact they don't even want to get into the fin making part so the system will only cost about $12.00 a set. The whole system was conceived here on Kauai by a friend that I've been mentoring on the art of glassing. As soon as I get the system from him I'll post pictures and explain how it works.Aloha,Kokua
128

Here’s an image of a 3D model and the machined core in solid H60:

-Hein

129

Hein - do you mill out the future slots with the cnc machine or by hand? Seems like it would be hard to do it with the cnc machine unless you had a 5 axis system.

130

Yes, I machine the fin box slots. You can do a lot with a 3 axis machine if you are creative and have flexible and powerful CNC programming tools. It all starts with a complete and accurate 3D model. I machine everything because I want the board to match the 3D model exactly and allow for 100% repeatability.

The 3D computer model then becomes a complete and accurate record of the board - not just some overall dimensions. Every detail of the board can be measured, documented, reviewed and changed at any time.

As a result, a comprehensive design history is recorded as the shape is iterated. It’s called product data managment and there are specialized PDM systems that run on top of the CAD system to maintain this kind of information. It is impossible to parameterize a complex 3D shape so you have to save and then be able to later return to the 3D model at different stages in the design history.

Sounds complex but the goal is to reduce the record keeping and research time that engineers do so they can spend more time being creative. Most engineers/designers love that part.

-Hein

131

well what a hot topic …some very interesting interpretations of what the future of surfboards may be …some comical , some pessimistic , some optimistic and some realistic …

as long as people surf there will be a need to design surfboards …

as long as people come in different sizes and shapes and want to surf different waves there will be a need for surfboard designers …

theres been some really good ideas thrown into this thread , of coarse its gonna take some serious cash to make some of them happen …

so then itll be a decision of economics …

i was having a laugh at what carl said about surfers not having money …

and where are all the orders coming from???

when i was a little younger than you carl , sitting around the table with my mates , just moved out of home , yea it was tough , lucky if i had more than a few boards at once , borrowed boards , tried to resurect old boards …

i would look at the some of the guys i was working for , and just couldnt fathom where 40 or 50 orders a week came from …?

and how some of the older shapers were always getting accused of being slack coz it took months to get boards out of them …

and in frustration some guys would change shapers so they could get a board off someone else quicker …

but as time goes on you become more established and it slowly snowballs , different things you do now will decide how quickly it snowballs …

it amazes me how people find you and hear about your boards , but somehow the phone keeps ringing . and those guys who you were sitting around the table with as groms , looking for a few coins to scrape together …

those guys are now running software companies , managing productions , engineers , pearl farmers , real estate agents , pilots ,farmers , now there still about my age but money is no problem for them now …

i have customers who dont bat an eyelid at spending 3,500.00 and getting 3 brand new boards in one hit …

i got one customer , costs him 50,000 a year just to keep his yacht tied up and serviced , so whats a measly 1,000 for a board …

these guys couldnt give a rats about cost , they want quality , performance and they want it yesterday …

but when i was younger my customers wanted a cheap board , different age brackets are looking for different things in a board …

if you look at the baby boomer mentality …

you have a lot of people reaching the same stage in there life at the same time …

well surfing is no different …

look how many surfers started surfing from the late 70s to the early 90s there was a 15 year period where it boomed big time , pro surfing was just begining and it stimulated an entire generation to start surfing …

down here in oz we had the coca cola surfabout as a 10 year old i was glued to the tv watching pro surfing , i remember my friends mum saying to me , thatll be you one day , (board builder,close)…

well now all those surfers are in there 30s and 40s but the majority of builders are focusing on the grommet market , trying to make cheaper and cheaper boards to get price conscience groms on a board , when theres a whole generation who want quality and performance …they dont need to experiment with heaps of different shapes …

my personal boards havent changed much in 10 years , i dont care what the pros are riding coz im not 18 …

same goes for clothes …

i was out clothes shopping with my MRS a few weeks back …

i said ok , considering im fashionably challenged , i let her decide what would look good on me …

she was pulling out some of the most gay , childish looking stuff …

i said i dont want to look like an 18 year old , just as i said that a group of about 5 clone looking 18 year olds walked past , all wearing the same outfit my MRS was trying to put me in … i said see what i mean …

there are a lot of surfers late 20s to early 40s , dont wanna ride grommets boards and look like a pro clone , and dont wanna be branded as an old longboarder and stuck on some retro under performing relic look alike …

i personally think at the moment to much focus on old guys and grommets , i dont wanna wear an hawaiin shirt or look like a grom , but the surf industry seems to think thats where the market is …

the surfboards of the future will cover all age brackets styles and tastes ,and i think pro surfing in its current state will have less and less influence on the average board buyer , because it wont have as much in common with the average surfer …

back in the 80s , way more influence coz more surfers fitted the age bracket of the pros back then …

im seeing more and more guys in there 40s and 50s still ripping , but need something to suit there age to rip on , but dont want a boat …

im seeing most of the complaints and an unmet market there now …

i think greg said it recently and i fully agreed , i can walk into a shop of a hundred boards and not see one i would ride …they either made for kids or kooks or old longboarders …

we can all run out and meet that need , then there will be a trend or change of style or fashion and the race will be on again for the next thing …

the longer we let the bigger companies and media decide what we want the easier it is for surftech to pop out boards to suit the masses …

if its fresh ,changing ,vibrant … the custom guys rule …

when it stagnates the surftechs get there chance again …

just about everyone on this thread is all for keeping the ball rolling and progressing …

trends and changes is what will keep custom boards alive …

regards

BERT

132

In my opinion the cheaper product is about getting grommets and others started in surfing. Once they know what they’re doing they will want custom and quality.

I asked my wife why there are so many incredible deals available to kids here concerning getting into skiing and snowboarding, cheap gear, cheap lift tickets etc. Being an old grommet I wanted those deals too, it’s so expensive.

The very logical reason she gave me was they want to get the kids hooked while they are young, plain and simple. Once they’re hooked, they will want and pay for better equipment and pay the ridiculous lift prices.

Sure, only a percentage will continue, but that’s all the industry needs. Berts and others phones will keep ringing for exactly this reason, and cheaper new tech boards will always exist for exactly the same reason.

133

Bert

the future is the present. It just hasn’t figured that out yet as neither have alot of us.

But sooner or later it’s going to slap us in the head to let us know it’s here. Kind of like what happened to you upon seeing Miki’s machine.

As far as all the “I shape therefore I am” naysayers and the “lets run the old red-white and blue up the flag pole” brainiacs least you forget where this all come from…

Perhaps Pohaku Stone can best communicate what it’s really like, I know even he couldn’t stay true to it’s nature just like the voyaging canoe makers have “transititoned”.

You want to be handshaper and do it like it was supposed to be done in the first place?

Well first you have to pray and pray and bring offerings to your sect’s appropriate Kahuna(cause there’s alot of them) who will give you the required permissions and direct you to a specific area in the forest to find your board’s raw blank. Then you must again pray and pray to your gods for guidance until the higher powers that be direct you to the single living entity willing to sacrifice itself for your enjoyment and creativity. Once you have made all the proper offerings to account for this sacrifice, you use your stone adze to cut a chunk out of the base of the living entity and build a fire in the base to fell and free the living being from its legs and stomach. Using your adze you trim the arms from the being until you just have it’s dying torso and you haul it back to your hala or home and perhaps to the local shaping shack. But you must make sure to perform or offer some form of blood sacrifice to account for the life just just given before you leave the being’s home. Once at home you can either let it die completely ( to cure it) or, you can begin the tedoius task of removing it’s skin and flesh until you have molded it using your adze and other lava rocks and tools like shark skin into the shape that will best provide you the ultimate papa he’e nalu pleasures. Once it’s shape has been provided you have to let it become accumulated to it’s new purpose to feel comfortable with it. You must look to the gods for inspiration and give it a name for it’s new existence, the name must have purpose and meaning, reflecting the sacrifice provided and the joy to be provided. Finally like you would with a fine wahine you massage it with banana stumps and them with the luxurious and light giving oil of the kukui to protect it from the elements. You then carress it down to the shore bearing it’s full weight and make your offerings to that all the living things that sacrificed themselves to provide you this pleasure before you place it in the water and paddle out. At this point it is the soul and mana of your beings new form that will allow you to transform the energy and spirit of the ocean into pure decadent enjoyment. Because that’s what you are doing here; pursuing a decadent, and selfish enjoyment of a natural force.

If this is what you how you make your papa he’e nalu equipment…

I have nothing to say to you but only express respect and honor your courage to keep true to what was…

If this is not what you do when you claim to hand make your papa he’e nalu equipment…

Then I don’t think you have any right to dispute or argue about change, about technology, or loss of “source” because you really are an end product of all that from Tom Blake on, just not willing to admit it.

Pohaku has tried and is trying but it’s almost impossible to maintain the old ways, just like our music has transitioned and our hula has transitioned into something new so has our water craft building heritage and so will yours…

134

Bring it on!

“Printed in China” I can’t even begin to tell you how many close friend business owners and workers have lost their jobs to outsourced “printing.” If they can copy (or buy) a multicolor, high-speed, close registration, printing press and print something as fine as the “Surfer’s Journal” could a multi-axis surfboard machine cutter and “Al Merrick” COPIES be far off? OR are they already here? OR does it matter? What if you saw more imports than “local” shapes out in your line-up. I wouldn’t be too happy…

I may have come across as anti-computer or anti-machine (or anti-future?), actually I design on a computer all-day long, but there is a Pandora box aspect to software-computer-machine. And there is no turning back once you crack the lid. I’m sure Hein has had a lot of training as an engineer/designer and has probably taken years to get a perfected shape and management system such as he is showing us. I still think that there is a “hands on” technique that hasn’t been tapped into yet… spend your money wisely, there’s alot of beautiful “wish list” machines on the resale market (or scrap heap) that will never find a good home again. And if you don’t think that metal is sacred, just as the trees in oneula’s post, I can only bow my head in sadness.

This article tells the strategy that printing companies are using to fight back in an affected industry. Might be of interest to some…

http://ep.pennnet.com/Articles/Article_Display.cfm?Section=Articles&Subsection=Display&ARTICLE_ID=219739

135

oneula …

i think i got the point …

but question ??? as an hawaiin , i presume you are ?

is there a feeling that the sacredness of building a board yourself and surfing it , has somehow been polluted and not given the respect it once had ??

as i read your words it suddenly hit me how important and sacred the art of crafting a board and riding it was , how it was/is an important part of a polynesians heritage …

for someone who loves building surfboards , who has a passion and wants to put that bit of soul into every board …

theres a constant struggle between the surfboard as a commodity or a craftsmans work of art …

i dont think the use of a machine , would make a board seem soul-less …

if it has a designer and it was designed for an individual , then it had purpose …

aps can individualise each and every board …

other machines are better set up for 10 or a 100 of exactly the same thing , now thats treating the surfboard as a commodity …

individual creations , for individual surfers and your getting back to basics …

im not sure from your words as to your feelings about machines to assist a craftsman in his work …

or whether you were trying to get me to examine my own motives for wanting to use the aps ??

ive been asking myself the same question lately …

ive been in production mode in the past , and theres many things about building boards on a bigger scale i didnt like …

but then the other side of the coin is , should i deny people the opportunity to be able to own and ride one of my boards , just because i dont want to build lots of boards ??

one of the things i never liked about mass producing ,was seeing guys out surfing on one of my boards , i didnt know them they didnt know me , they just brought one from a shop , sometimes the wrong guy would get sold the wrong board , and even tho the board was fine , it was doing nothing for the guy riding it coz it didnt suit him …

i would much rather deal with every individual i make a board for …

thats what i do best …

so if better tools allow me to help more people im all for it …

me as an individual wouldnt be as interested in machines that pumped out boards for the sake of making them a soul-less commodity …

i think i got the point of your post , thats kinda how i interpreted it …

maybe i missed the point ? if so you might need to help me out so i get the understanding of what you were saying …

regards

BERT

136

That does it…

You clowns are on double secret probation!

If the future is going to be a war of cultures, watch out cause daddio’s Viking war ship is just crying out to be built. (In balsa sandwich construction of course) I just gotta get Great, Great, Great Grandpop Sven Gudenhornie’s horned helmet out of the storage bin…

Everything is sacred, including our thoughts and actions as well as our prayers. Walk into the future with the intent to make a difference!

I don’t mean to take away from whatever oneula will post, but lets walk into the future guys, and take it!

137

I believe there is true value and purpose to the “long” form and ritual of any art, craft, or endeavor. It slows things down, gives pause to consider what we are about in what we do, and to reflect on the impact we have, to think long term instead of short term. A martial arts instructor I had many years ago said to me “Think long term. By that I mean a thousand years. Think about everything you do, and what effect it will have a thousand years from now.” I’m not even close to living that.

Maybe, in the scheme of things, it is as important to divine a name for a board as any other aspect of creating it. To put energy into naming something gives it identity and purpose. I once worked with a family whose children were named in alphabetical order, because it was convenient. If you called one these kids by his birth name, he’d punch you out. They would not listen to and had no respect for their parents. Later, they did not know how to become part of the world. They did not fare well.

Perhaps I am too old fashioned, or behind the times, but perhaps also we have, in our press to increase the speed of living, lost touch with the primal necessity to remain part of the natural ebb and flow of the waves of which we partake, and not just see surfing as our due because we are at the top of the food chain. Technology can be helpful, but it is not what informs value, any more than the price tag tells you what something is worth.

I love toys as much as the next guy, but toys don’t last. But then, maybe lasting is not the point. Things that last don’t require replacement as often. There’s no profit in it.

138

Bert/Daddio

actually the point I was trying to make is quite the opposite.

I’m all for the technology and the progression of this artform as I’m the buyer not the artist. My skills lie elsewhere kind of like I learned early in school, find your path cause if you can’t sing you don’t go on american idol…

Just kind of sick and tired of all this “we gotta protect the soul of shaping from technology” crap going on in these discussions. The baseline of the argument in my previous post was that what everyone’s doing today is so far removed from what it was supposed to be, how can anyone alive today make the argument of the need to stop the future progress of what happening to the industry.

Secondly coming from Hawaii and being native Hawaiian maybe you can also understand how I feel about this “we gotta protect our US interests” argument as well. It’s the classic Teddy Roosevelt “Manifest Destiny” argument all over again. You know, the same “lets take over Hawaii to protect our sugar industry profits” attitude we saw 200-300 years ago here.

Things happen, things change if you don’t understand that you aren’t living in reality.

Things also sort themselves out good or bad but everything trys to achieve a balance within the laws of universal entropy. What is now will not be what is now tomorrow and you can’t go back to yesterday.

Tom Stone changed his name, paid his dues in pentinence for his black shorts days and now teaches ancient craft building as a bonified professor. But even he admits in the latest Longboarder that he had to pay a top northshore glasser to glass his precious 6’ wiliwili board to protect it. And I’m sure like the power chainsaws being used by todays voyaging canoe builders, Pohaku’s tools have returned to the modern tools like planers and sanders from the stone adzes he tried to stick to in the beginning of his rediscovery of the past.

A true artist isn’t going to be concerned about what a Walmart or Surftech is doing out there. They will just continue doing their art for their art’s sake whether that includes board crafting or not . Meanwhile folks like you, Greg, Miki, Arakawa, Jim Richardson, Dale S, Feral Dave, Surfgear, Sabs, Benny, Shwuz, are just looking at things with open minds wondering “how can I use some of this new stuff to make things better”.

It’s the folks who are in the “what’s in it for me” and how do I keep making a buck to fulfill my personal needs, who are the ones screaming and yelling. If you have something of value to offer in the first place why would you worry about losing your business unless you are catering to the same mass market as a Surftech/Boardworks. In my humble opinion then you are no better that them in the first place, end of argument. I believe that’s why Bert, your clients wait and pay large sums because they understand the value of what they will receive from you will not be just another off the shelf generic offering. I don’t know why this isn’t getting through to the masses.

If you produce something of quality people often recognize that and compensate you for it so you don’t have to mass produce to survive, just produce something better, look at Tom Wegener. These are the customers you want anyway, not the fly by nights who buy boards from the latest magazine issues as there’s no long term survival with that crowd as they just move on to the next fad when it comes along. Surfing is not truly in their heart as a long term commitment. Take good care of your customer and they will take of you is the old retail mantra. Believe me when I say the majority of name shapers just don’t understand that being so attached to their pro clients.

It’s going to be the degradation of the personal interaction of the artist and the buyer that will destroy the soul of surfing and the only ones to blame for that will be the artists/designers/shapers themselves. Maybe the role of the shaper is transforming into more of a watercraft designer than a builder. It doesn’t mean that the end product like a fancy runway dress will lose value or importance to the client.

It’ll be the people who can understand the new technology early on, then grab and run with it who will end up better off. Obviously there’ll be a steep learning curve for the trail blazers, but they will be the ones laughing when all the “woe me’s” come rushing to the gate to catch up when it finally sinks in they’ve missed the boat. That’s the internet and real estate bubble in a nutshell. Kind of what Steve’s iPod is doing to the whole portable music industry right now…People are trying to jump on but it’s a bit too late for some, others are trying to survive by digging new niche foxholes to hide in. It isn’t going to be any different in the board building business to believe so is only a dream of a fool.

I’m all for what’s going on here at sways it’s progressive, educational and enlightening, even Roy’s stuff was amazing although his apt for discussion was a little too intense… But heck that’s a sign of a committed artist.

Anyway thanks for everyone’s info and technique sharing, I really get the sense that something is indeed stirring under the covers. Something that will eventually force a correction to the current state of the board building industry.

Like the name finally given to the unfinished canoe donated by Wright Bowman Jr’s widow…

“Au Hou” (a new beginning)

139

Everyone comes at this question differently. For me, making stuff - whether surfboards, furniture, or a garden - is slow-down time on purpose. Meditative. Like a dawn patrol at an uncrowded spot. Like why I do the long-form Yang style Tai Chi - takes 30 minutes just to go through once.

My work is already busy and competitive. I’m a forest commodities processor & trader. Crazy, volatile worldwide markets, tons of competition, fires to put out every day. And I drive in the traffic of the bay area - although my ‘commute’ is only 8 miles. So all that is the Yang - I have to live the rest of my ilfe for the Yin. I enjoy the processes, start to finish. I’ve never handed a shape off to a glasser. I haven’t bought a piece of wood furniture in 15 years. I don’t own a microwave or have cable in my TV. My family does just fine - living in the middle of the city - without the fastest, newest thing.

If a businessperson can be more efficient, hire more people, be better for the environment, waste less, make more customers happy…the Yang of me says, hell yeah, do it. But the personal/family time Yin of me says, I’d never do it myself. Everyone has some of each. The key is just finding the balance. I guess I’m not just talking about surfboards, but it is germane to the thread.

140

Benny1 - Nice take on Chuck Barfoot’s logo, since 1970