I donno … How old is Stretch?
How old is Greg Griffen LOL? One of the posts had a reference to Firewire's website - they have a very good rocker comparison method, no dimensions that I could find, but an excellent graphic.
Talk about magic and soul, say that surfboard design is too complicated, with too many variables for rocker to matter, but in the end, I have to believe that it does matter. That good shapers pay attention to rocker, measure it, document it, check it, and then double-check it while shaping.
http://www.firewiresurfboards.com/quiver_foils.php?boardid=foils
“that’s the “secret” merrick 3-stage rocker and it is very much on purpose.”
I’m counting 5 stages on my MBM and K Step up
- nose flip
- entry from 12 " to pre midpoint
- midpoint
- from about 12" past midpoint to back of front fins (This area is the flattest)
- tail flip
“How old is Greg Griffen LOL?”
???
Greg is an older guy, probably close to Brewer’s generation, or just behind them. He makes really good boards for Hawaii. He also makes his fins himself. Very meticullous craftsman. A mad scientist kind of guy. He still surfs serious waves and regular boards too.
Between my brother and I , we probably have about a 10 of his boards.
Thanks for all those who have followed this thread
i hope if nothing else,you found it thought provoking
now its your turn
the thread had a large number of hits,but many decided not to voice there opinion
you are the silent majority
and i’m interested in your view,either way,so make it clear…
take the time,to send me a quick PM,in complete discretion
i’m interested in your particular concerns
i’m sure there’s much that hasn’t been covered…
could you see your own kids,following you into handshaping as a profession?
or will they decide the odds are too stacked against them,and the only way
to make a living from the sport they love,would be to pimp for a mass producer…
At least you laughed…
That was my intent… And I thought it aptly addressed the title of this thread…
Why so many highly respected , prominent and over 18 yr old shapers posting over there???
i have several of stretch’s boards and have spent a lot of time talking surfboard with him. he’s got a few “spherical” rockers as he calls them. they’re more elliptical than circular - there’s variation in the curve but it’s not 3 staged like the merrick rocker. no nose flip.
i measured the rocker on a rookie and i’ve measured the rocker on a couple of flyers. the rookie is more towards spherical/elliptical while the flyer is 3 staged (plus nose flip). i haven’t measured an mbm or k-step so i can’t speak to those models specifically.
I haven't been the silent majority on this thread, but I'll be happy to state where I'm at on the subject. First of all, thanks for starting the thread, it has raised a lot of issues, and provided food for thought.
Now, as far as handshaping as a profession: there might always be a niche for a select few, of course, but that doesn't mean shaping would necessarily be a viable "profession" in the typical sense of the word. Seems like pretty much anything "handcrafted" is on its way out - computer assisted design, computer numeric machines, mass-produced factory surfboards, third world labor, etc., have pretty much spelled the future for the bulk of the market.
Surfermag has an article in the new issue that relates how several of the new prominent shapers have spent very little time with a planer in hand. Keyboard jockeys are gonna be the new wave of pro shapers.
I do think the backyarder / garage shaper contingency is strong and will remain so, unless the suppliers just stop selling to us. Even then, there are guys who will build surfboards out of popsicle sticks if they have to =)
I don't see how a rocker catalog is going to impact any of the above in any significant way. I do think any shaper worth his salt pays attention to rocker, and that anyone who thinks you could build a board with no rocker, or just throw on any old rocker, and make up for it with foil, outline, and magic pixie dust, is mistaken. Thats just me.
Rocker is an important design criteria, of course its not the be-all do-all magic formula for a great board, but no one ever said it was, to my knowledge, and I don't see how anyone with any design moxie could ever discount the impact of rails, foil, bottom contours, fin setups, etc. etc. Thats shaping 101, its a complex recipe, get to know all the ingredients. Rocker is just one significant factor in the overall shape. So, like the quote on the other forum, "go ahead and take my rocker, you'd still have to shape the rest of the board".
I think a good shaper will take note of rockers, measure them, make templates or files - or - have a system for designing a rocker, like everysurfer and malaroo, and then tweak those rockers according to the overall design criteria for the individual boards. I don't need a rocker catalog, but I certainly don't see any harm in it either. In fact I think its a pretty good idea for shapers to record their rockers and share with one another. If nothing else it gets people looking closer at rockers, and the way they interact with the rest of the board.
If a guy wanted to put together a catalog of rockers from different brand-name boards, and said Hey everyone, measure the rocker on your Merricks and your Rustys and post 'em up, with the name of the board you got them off of, then that presents a problem. Not legally maybe, because if these shapes are in the public domain, as you say, then it is legal to do so. But there is still a feeling of some respect due to the originator of a design, who worked hard to arrive at his own formula, and that its not right to just post that information up for all the world to see.
Example: information on the sale of your house is part of a public record - but when anyone can go on the internet and see when you bought it, how much you paid, what your monthly payment is, etc, that makes me a little uncomfortable (even 'tho its a reality). Sometimes just because information is public, its not always necessary to parade it, if you know what I mean.
But when guys who design their own boards, and have rockers they use and like, are willing to share with other like-minded designers, or share with newbies who need a clue, then that kind of interchange of information is, in my opinion, healthy and a good thing. And really, there is nothing out there that isn't derivative of what came before, in some sense.
Seems like there's been a lot of smoke and mirrors thrown into the discussion for whatever reason, maybe including questioning your background and intentions. I don't see you as some wanna-be shaper asking everyone to go out and record the rockers on their boards then post them up for you to build your career on, especially since everyone seems to agree rocker alone isn't the magic bullet anyway.
But perhaps hinting that was the case has made some hesitant to get on board with the rocker catalog concept, and some of your comments early on in the thread did seem to fuel that view, i.e. "a place prospective customers could come for informed advice, read ride reports of shapes and rockers, choose a local shaper, or anyone else on here to put the right package together for them...the site should have easily accessable links on all the surf report websites, paid for by advertizing, or subscriptions.." That doesn't sound like a bunch of garage shapers sharing notes on rockers that have worked for them.
Feel free to disagree, but know this: if you do, you're off your rocker. Just kidding. Rock on.
LMAO
****The Magazine Surfer(s)?!
Pose, Posture, Troll and Flame …
Long live the spawn of the Surfing Industrial Complex.
So three stage has more of a “kink” or a break in the transition, where the spherical/ eliptical is more of a continous progression of curve?
I started that thread in response to this thread :-/
Merricks transistions b/w the stages is sublimely smooth but there is certainly a flatter section of rocker between the feet. I took stretch’s rocker stick and put it on a fred rubble and it “fit” but for the flat section bw the feet. Same tip and tail rocker, same essential curve, but for the speed box.pretty interesting IMO.
Unless we,the average surfer/shapers,have the audacity to think we can see or feel rocker like some of the great men who have devoted most of their lives to ‘honing’ this instinct then i think your right Tommy,comparison with feedback,is the best way for us to understand rocker,and the factors which influence it, it needs mapping…
Anyone else feel as sad,and sick,as i did,hearing Hucks view of the future?
it does look desperate,surfer shapers are going to be marginalized and pushed out of the sport,and lifestyle
Anyway,If we agree rocker is subjective,then there is no right or wrong,only choice
then there is a range of variance,and something within that range will be your own personal favourite,and work best for you,probably within a certain time period,and dependant on ability,style,the type of waves u surf,the boards dimensions,and almost every factor you could consider
this rocker is likely to have already been 'discovered
if i’m understanding your principle of ethic correctly,it would feel wrong to use it without paying for it somehow
can i suggest that the only payment that relates to an ethic would be respect,and i would like to see this given freely to the person or persons who brought these rockers into mainstream,
there should be recognition for those discoveries, that are found to be used far more than others,even on different types of board,a data base of rocker would secure this for those concerned…
there will always be custom surfboard shapers, just as there will always be custom cabinet makers, custom hot rod builder, custom gunsmiths, etc…will always be that small group of ‘functional art’ artists who follow their passion regardless of the $ rewards, as minimal as they might be…when 90% of the boards come out of minimal wage factories, there will always be the local shaper committed to the cause who will value your order.
dialog and thought exchange is good…no need to sharpen the knives when exchanging differing thoughts, however, enough of that crap saturates the background noise as it is…
Regarding Stretch spherical rocker - saw a vimeo clip of Stretch showing a board with 3.5" nose rocker, 3.5" tail rocker, entirely uniform curve....makes a lot of sense for todays pilots, equally surfing nose and tail, utilizing radical new biometrics to position their boards in places formerly only found in Murph the Surf cartoons... Stumbled across Ride The Wild Surf the other night....watched the 'real men' muscling their flat rockered big boards across deep walls...so easy to recognize how much better those boards would have worked pared down, and with more.....rocker. Sometime in the future, some surfer will be watching a video clip of John John, and think, 'wow, if only his board had.....The imaginative innovators, craftsmen and artists will create, the mediocre will copy and the lemmings will follow.
I am always astonished by the focus on ability, experience and craftsmanship. Ideas and imagination are usually the true driving force of revolutionary advancements and change – combined with the ability to take thought conciousness and translate it into 3-D, physical form. So much science and data hate, yet Simmons was a science, data and ideas man. Clark knew the physical properties (science and data) of his material better than most.
While profit margin drives the Industrial Complex, cost to purchase retail product and individual need drive the independent, backyard builder. The price/cost of building your own surfboard for custom results is a bargain relative to the overpriced, commercially hyped and branded, homogenized boards produced for high volume sales. (EPS was not widely used until Clark Foam closed. EPS blanks could be cut by hand in a garage one at a time, were cost effective alternatives and could be easily made with a wide array of “rockers.”) Ultimately, the greed of the Industrial Complex will keep the backyard builders alive and well. Necessity is the mother of invention.
The organic, green and sustainability movements are supporting high-dollar products and niche industries that are likely to grow, especially among those with means. As awareness grows about the delicate balance of the planetary ecosystems and their impacts on the “quality” of life, demand for alternative products may well continue to grow, while crushing those products that exacerbate the problem.
Mass production is just that, product for the masses with a bottom line – profit.
There will always be connoisseurs to support gifted artists, masters and geniuses.
Alas, this poor mule is dead …