You know I have a favorite fork. Always did, but it’s always based on what’s in the kitchen drawer. When I’m at my mom’s house I have a favorite shape of fork, and when I’m at home I have a favorite. I don’t think it makes the food any better, but it fits my mouth just right.
There’s a bunch of guys you go to for a special board. It’s not because they have all this data on paper or in a computer, but it’s their head. That data got there from lots of experience and trial and error. I don’t think these craftsmen are ever at risk from the Indo-china surfboard factories unless their customers are all beginners with no money or not willing to spend money.
Kinda like buying a guitar, I can get one for a hundred dollars, but I can’t get a really good guitar for less than thousand. A nice Taylor or Martin is several thousand and up and those are made in large factories. Those really really nice guitars handbuilt by master builders who make them all by themselves are between five and ten thousand now. I know because I was just looking, and I’m probably still at the $100 level of playing ability.
You gotta choose who you plan to sell your product to and if you can’t sell enough to make a living, you should probably do something else.
I saw a brand new Skip Frye the other day, it was priced at $6000. Phreaked me out, but I know someone’s gonna buy it. Kinda weird to buy something that is not going to get better with age, but worse. Unless of course your never ride, but then why buy it.
I just love when I see people start a new thread here asking for the dimensions of some “name” board. I’d be pissed if I was the one who made the original “name” board because if it’s not made right someone’s going to think the original sucks. The other thing I think is not right is people making boards with other people names on them. Why not use your name? A good board is a good board, why rip off another person’s name if that person didn’t make it. Exception is if you work for a factory that demands the products use a certain name.
I often use guitars as examples too - my other religion.
Take the Fender Stratocaster - you can get them made in Korea for $150, Mexico for $350, Japan for $500, or the US for $900. US Custom Shop models start at around $2,000 and go upwards of $50,000 for a Master-Built custom. They’re the same basic guitar. They have the same dimensions (in fact, parts are interchangeable), are all made from wood, plastic, and metal parts. They all say “Stratocaster” on them… yet, all are different. Made for different levels of players with different levels of expectations from their instruments. They are all basically the same guitar Leo Fender designed in the early 50s. In fact, he gets the credit he earned with his original design (maybe not the royalties since selling to CBS in 1964, but that was his choice). Fender owns, controls, or contracts the factories that produce all of them. The Stratocaster is one of the most copied guitars by other manufacturers too. Copies also come in various qualities and prices. Some give credit to Fender, some don’t. Not all guitar players know or care who designed the original, but “core” players do. Again… a subjective design. Do we need to post lower-bout contour charts for guitar factories to follow too, or do we use instruments designed by luthiers who come up with designs that speak to our individual needs?
In cool activities like surfboard building, there is often a strong “desire” factor that drives things. The longer the activity remains “cool”, the more time there is for more people to also develop a strong “desire” to be players in the activity.
Last night, I was having dinner with a friend from San Francisco, who is the father of mountain biking and has his own bike brand. He was in Haight Ashbury in its early days and we were discussing how revolutionary the music and energy was coming out of there and then sadly, how it quickly degenerated into chaos with most everyone of consequence having to escape before it killed them. We talked also about the success of Woodstock and its contrast to the later disaster at Altamont. Then we talked about mountain biking, surfng, board building and other activities we had been involved in.
The contrast seems to center around the difference between the “early adapters” and those who come in waves afterwords. It isn’t so much the timing but rather the volume of participants and their assorted motivations. Many lacking the soul, passion and purpose of the early adapters. Thus radically changing the activity and the scene around it.
Something new is typically created by a small group of devoted and original participants. Their motivations tend to be simple, passionate and pure. They are operating with an innocent and naive humility, because the simple joy of the activity is the primary driving factor in their wanting to participate. At this stage, everyone one else is an outsider.
It is common for the “new” activity to be viewed by the outsiders as being too risky, difficult or dangerous to get involved in and onsequentially, there will only be a few early adapters. And the “less brave” outsiders, will tend to revere all the early adapters. Lifting them up as unique and amazing characters, willing to pursue the risky and difficult activity with wild abandon and immense skill. This imparts to them, a unique kind of “soul” of which the most highly valued, is possesed only by the earliest of adapters.
As the reverence for these early adapters grows, awareness of the activity expands and eventually a secondary wave of adapters will be drawn to the activity. This growing participant base then results in even more exposure and more legendary characters that the outsiders can look up to. These cycles continue until an awkard and fragile stasis is achieved. But the pressure keeps building because many of these outsiders are developing a growing desire to be one of the revered participants. Some will be willing to take the risks and efforts but many, many, more will just want to gain the glory without the risks or difficult efforts.
Eventually, commercialiity enters the activity and the waves of participants, semi-participants and wannabees, explodes… as the commercial interests intentionally expose, develop and manipulate the activity. A big portion of which is devoted to exposing and increasing the fame of the exceptional participants for profit.
Eventually it matters not how much soul a participant has or how original and important they were/are to the activity. It is easy enough for commercial entities to simply market anyone into being a legend and then milk the hell out of it. No need to find a real one when words like master, legend, waterman, etc, etc, can simply be attached to anyone, as economic needs arise. And heaven forbid that the activity gets any easier to do, like it has with shaping, as this will allow a tsunami of wannabees to participate, overwhelming every existing standard and paridgm.
Somewhere along in this process, the ensuing new waves of later adapters, become driven more by the “glory” of being known as famous particpants in the activity, and much less in the soul and innocent passion of participating in the actual activity itself.
Soul then evaporates, and if it does exist anywhere… no one is looking to find it. It is smothered by layers and layers of late adapters and semi-participants all buried in a huge dog pile, where everyone is trying to beat the next guy to the top of the fame pile, and those who should be working to find and preserve the soul are themselves struggling in the same dog pile, hoping to get to the top in their category.
.thanks,theres a lot of rubbish in some these adverse replies,but good points too,tho clouded by tangled logic
I’m just saying that for me personally, I wan’t my board built by someone who intrinsically knows what works, and what works FOR ME. Surfing is totally subjective. Surfboard design is totally subjective. It’s not simply numbers. There is NO SUCH THING as a perfect surfboard or perfect sets of numbers. You might think my favorite board sucks, and visa versa. That’s fine by me. Even if there was a perfect design, I don’t want to buy my surfboard like many people buy tennis rackets. The tradition and history of shaping boards is important to me. I support those who have given their sweat and blood making objects of my desire. I’m not invested in the sucess of those who simply want an easy way to exploit what amounts to my religion.
and i’d like to see more quality shapers around in the long run kendall,able to keep their livelihoods,and their culture,against the growing tide of big business…who as you say are in it for the money…but it does look desperate for anyone starting out
going to a shaper and knowing your going to get exactly what you need is the key
whether based on his decision or yours
sharing information would allow us knowledge based shop front,in an online marketplace already completely dominated by mass producers with every means at their disposal
we believe in our own products,but can we expect the buying public to choose our product unseen,against the glitter and hype,which all the main producers are able to provide
As rocker is subjective,then how can it matter what information we have, its just good reference material,something else to help build confidence in our product
the choice for me is simple,you either want a world where only those few,already renowned,and gifted craftsmen can survive in an exploding population of mass producers
or you want a surfer/shaper culture to remain strong enough to be able to hold its own against this threat,in a very uncertain future…
how easy is that,unless your a hypocritical bigot…
Barnfield’s thesis reminds of Fredrick Jackson Turner’s now famous thesis first published in the 1890’s, “The Closing of the American Frontier”, In it he outlines how successive types of settlers populate and change the American West. Scholars have often challenged Turner’s thesis, because it was so revolutionary in its time and it has been discounted by many Historians because there are so many newer ways of looking at things. Still for me I see the truths in both Barnfield’s and Turner’s central argument.
I for one want to be a purist, doing it for the love and not for the numbers. Swaylock’s doesn’t need a rocker catalogue Glory-dog, it needs free-thinkers willing to find new frontiers yet undiscovered. There are some pretty cool guys around here who have devoted their lives to their passion, who are nice enough to share what they’ve learned, and I would name names, but I would leave someone off and then their feelings would get hurt, so I wont; these are the giver’s, and then there are the taker’s. Taking isn’t necessarily or inherently bad, but it can be.
The numbers are already out there, but as some have alluded to, they are changing constantly. If you want to measure Joe Jackfruit’s stick, do it you’ll learn something. Go ahead, glory-d, measure away and then post up, I will be sure to read your research, just for fun or if I am in need of sleep.
I’d like to comment on Bills last post,but i can’t
I’ve simply never met any of these glory seeking surfer/ shapers, tho they sound prolific…
All the ones i have met have been honest and down to earth,with an overiding love of the ocean,who want to feed their kids, maintain their natural lifestyle,and keep on doing what they like doing best.
i must have been lucky,has anyone else had the same experience…?
I havent read Turner,getto,but i can imagine your immensly proud of your heritage…
i have read ‘i lost my heart at wounded knee’ tho,the factual account of the extinction of the American indian’s way of life
very moving…
maybe in another 20 yrs they’ll write a book depicting the extinction of another more modern culture…for greed and gain
it would be interesting to see how someone like myself would be depicted
First of all… making a living being a fulltime shaper is getting harder, not easier. With more companies jumping in to create mass-produced boards at cut-rate pricing, there’s just not room for that many neighborhood craftsmen. Shaping boards one at a time by hand is time consuming, and materials are expensive. A glossed and polished longboard costs a shaper around $500. There’s a limit to what surfshops (another losing business in this economy) will sell that same board for. They can SELL similar looking Asian made boards for less than it costs the individual shaper to make one, while marking it up at a higher percentage.
Surfshops carry a lot of the blame for the decline of successful shapers. In the early days, shops realized they could make more per board by undercutting the shaper-businesses, and making the boards themselves. Markups on boards have always been the lowest of any product in the store. While clothing gets marked up at 100%, boards get something like 15%… except now the Asian imports are cheap enough that they can be marked up much more, and still be less than the COST of locally produced boards. Boards are sexy, and bring in customers. Clothing and accessories pay the rent. It’s ironic that the very thing that the entire industry is built on gets the least support and respect. Not long ago I was talking with the owner of a large shop in my area. He used to have lots of custom boards by indivudual master shapers. Now it’s mostly Asian made mass-produced stuff. He said “why would I push a customer to spend $650 on a short board by ___ when I can sell them one of these copies for $450 and get the same $150 markup? That then leaves them $200 to spend on leashes and clothes, where I get 100% markup.” For the same $650, the shop owner makes $250 vs $150 for selling the domestic board. Result - shaper loses a sale, business drives the cool factor towards commodity.
Becoming a quality shaper requires a total commitment to the craft. Simply having access to number charts won’t do anything to progress your learning towards becoming a master. Numbers don’t mean anything. How a board surfs means everything. The best path to becoming a master is the same as it’s always been - it certainly helps to surf really well, listen to and learn from existing masters (become an apprentice / flunky), know how to use tools and work with your hands, have the ability to take ideas from your head to foam, get constant feedback from real-world use.
Good shapers almost always know what you need more than you do. The important factors in finding your magic board include - what are you riding now, what do you like / not like about it, what kind of surfer are you, balance of manuverabiliy / speed / stability (pick two), etc. If you’re good enough (surfer, customer, nice person, whatever), it’s always best if you can surf with your shaper. Then they can evaluate your needs in the real world.
Again… I’m not making judgement calls about your intentions. In fact I started a project with a mass-market board company a few years ago that included online tools for selecting the right board based on models in their lineup. In the end, it proved to be too expensive for the company to take on, since even they were feeling the pressure from others jumping on the bandwagon.
Being a succesful surfboard brand (individual shaper or mass-producer) is kinda like being a rock star - the most important thing your business can have is a fan-base. Getting fans isn’t something a rocker chart will do for you. Getting great boards under the feet of influencial surfers is a better step in that direction. Telling me you know numbers for this or that part of board design does nothing for me. Making a board that feels right in the water does everything.
If you don’t have the marketing budget to compete with the mass-producers, start by making friends at the beach. Take boards. Let people surf them. Give them away, or at cost, to the “influencers” - surfers that others look up to and want to follow.
I’m not sure where you’re coming from here. It seems like you’re saying two conflicting things. You want easily accessable info to make your products better, but you also want a world with a strong surfer/shaper culture? How do those support each other?
Are you mass-producing boards? Where do your designs come from? Are you associated with any known shapers?
Surfing didn’t start out as a business. It started as a sport, lifestyle, religion. The early shapers weren’t thinking they’d make a quick buck (ok, maybe Velzy did). They were just evolving the craft based on their love of surfing. Like Bill says, now that it’s become “cool”, everyone wants a piece of it. I’ve stopped caring about the business of surfing. I haven’t, and won’t stop caring about surfing or great surfboards. If the surf industry self-destructs, I’d start to have my favorite spots to myself again, making the quality of each session much higher. The cost of being “cool” is fighting crowds of beginners at every surf spot. It’s not just beginners. There are just more surfers. I’ve learned to live with it, even though it means I don’t even try to paddle out at some of my old favorite spots. When I started surfing in the 60s, guys would welcome you to the lineup… pretty much anywhere. Now you get stinkeye from 14 year old groms that think they own their spot.
If the “surf business” went away, there’d still be master shapers at the best surf spots, and there’d still be Swaylock’s where the truly obsessed can share ideas and stoke… and I’d still be dropping in on you
Gdog, your intent is good, but I think the key for surfer shapers to find success is experience. It takes some time and lots of work to understand how to use the tools of the trade to get the best results. Then there’s the knowledge needed to match what works for the types of waves that are out there. I really don’t think a shaper can make a great board for a place he or she has no knowledege of at different tides or swell sizes. Add to that a someone’s ability and style and it can get so complicated.
I think the great thing we have now is the variety of shapers and board builders. I look for boards from certain people for very specific reasons. A lot of it has to do with that person’s surfing background, and reputation. No asian factory can claim either of those, and eventually the asian built clones being sold by the big name companies will be shown to have small differences that a good surfer can feel. That’s when the experienced handshaper will be sought out.
Swaylocks can never teach me how to make a board as good as Bill Barnfield or Greg Griffin or Dick Brewer. It can only help me get started, or help me learn something new. Problem is that it also helps anyone out there with a computer. I have personally been plagued by newbies in my industry (which is not making surfboards) who I taught then turn around and try to take away my position in the “line up” but quickly fail due to the lack of “experienced” knowledge. That experienced knowledge can never be passed on in a few quick lessons it has to be experienced over time. It is also wise to never give away key “tricks” that set you apart from the rest.
The best thing you can do to reach your goal is to personally pass on the things you feel are so valuable for others to have. Then hopefully those recipients will do the same to others who they feel deserve that gift. You can never pass on what it takes to manipulate tools to get the absolute best results from the web. That is only achieved on an individual and personal basis.
The cost of a product is not the true selling point to anyone looking for a product of value. High quality often takes time, the experienced craftsman knows how to get the highest quality with the least amount of steps.
thanks again for your time and energy on this one kendall,your words do ring with truth…
surf shops are doing what they have to do to stay in business,if the means swopping local shapers for higher profit margins,you cant blame them, local shapers have cut their own throats as well,all too easy for shop customers to get in contact direct,then offered a bro deal on a different board that cuts out the shop,they’ll never change back…
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I’m not sure where you’re coming from here. It seems like you’re saying two conflicting things. You want easily accessable info to make your products better, but you also want a world with a strong surfer/shaper culture? How do those support each other?
i think your right, i havent made this clear enough, at the moment although surfing generally is still expanding, our actual market is shrinking,business is not coming through shops,the online market is growing rapidly,and we have no presence.
the only way we could have this presence, is globally as a group. an online facility would be ineffective without a design centre,for a design program to work would need some common understanding on rocker,among other things,and an agreement on non-ownership of shapes.i think we have products which are comparable or better than the competition,i think we can offer a better complete service than any of the opposition,i think if this option were available,many would consider supporting local shapers ,i think sways has the background knowledge base to make this work,it is the right vehicle
most importantly,i think we would gain far more than we would lose…
which is why i’m here,seemingly banging my head against a brick wall
i make individually designed stringerless epoxy/ wood veneer boards with wrapped rails,
thanks again for your time and energy on this one kendall,your words do ring with truth…
surf shops are doing what they have to do to stay in business,if the means swopping local shapers for higher profit margins,you cant blame them, local shapers have cut their own throats as well,all too easy for shop customers to get in contact direct,then offered a bro deal on a different board that cuts out the shop,they’ll never change back…
I’m not sure where you’re coming from here. It seems like you’re saying two conflicting things. You want easily accessable info to make your products better, but you also want a world with a strong surfer/shaper culture? How do those support each other?
i think your right, i havent made this clear enough, at the moment although surfing generally is still expanding, our actual market is shrinking,business is not coming through shops,the online market is growing rapidly,and we have no presence.
the only way we could have this presence, is globally as a group. an online facility would be ineffective without a design centre,for a design program to work would need some common understanding on rocker,among other things,and an agreement on non-ownership of shapes.i think we have products which are comparable or better than the competition,i think we can offer a better complete service than any of the opposition,i think if this option were available,many would consider supporting local shapers ,i think sways has the background knowledge base to make this work,it is the right vehicle
most importantly,i think we would gain far more than we would lose…
which is why i’m here,seemingly banging my head against a brick wall
i make individually designed stringerless epoxy/ wood veneer boards with wrapped rails,
Gdog, once you try to get involved in a group effort via the web or over very long distances, things will change and get ugly. Money has a way of changing some people for the worse. Bad management will do the same.
I have a better understanding of what you’re trying to do. Maybe a simple listing of who’s where and what they can do for you is all that’s needed. Can’t beat getting a board from a local surfer who knows the spots inside out and who also happens to be a damned good surfer.
I also make stringerless EPS/XPS/Epoxy/wood skinned boards, but I don’t sell my boards, just pass them on once I’m ready to let them go.
Best of luck on this. I hope you get something together that works for all those like you.
It actually does have one, only it’s distributed, not centralized.
Collective megabytes worth, hardwired into the gray matter of every shaping Swaylockian.
Rocker for shortboards, semis, guns, eggs, hulls, fishes, HPLB’s, cruisers, nose riders, etc. etc.
So why not bring all that knowledge together?
Well, first have to come up with a standard on measuring rockers. One shapers decades of carefully indexed rocker notes will mean little to another shaper if they don’t measure exactly the same.
And as to the rocker itself. 3 stage kind of guy, continual, spherical…?
And variance? Take a prolific shaper, have him hand shape two exact dimension custom surfboards a few weeks apart, think the rockers will be absolutely exact…?
Probably not, because shaping those two boards was an act of producing highly functional art, using the most basic of hand tools powered by the most powerful of all tools.
Custom, one of a kind, hand crafted, imbued with soul. That shape, that rocker? Straight from the gray. The only place that can make soul, or recognize soul.
And if a custom surfboard ain’t got soul…it’s just another commodity.
tail rocker happens