Just my opinion on the subject. I saw these boards showing up in Japan about 18 months ago. The Japanese surf market was very concerned at the time. The quality was poor (both shapes and glassing) yet because the price point was good some surfers purchased these boards. I have seen the Costco boards that are out there now, they have airsprays, the glasswork is better, and yes they must be the real thing because they have fcs fin systems in them. This spring Costco will probably sell every board the can get there hands on.The reality here is that it’s affect will be short lived on surfboard manufacturing ( be it large scale ie; R., Channel Island, backyard or otherwise here in the U.S.A. For a first time buyer, soccer mom, etc. , it looks like a great deal and for some it is a good way to go. However, 6 months down the road when Johnny wants that shiny new board like the one he was checking out down at the local surf shop he may be in for a bit of a shock. Assuming that he has’nt broken the nose off, delamed the deck or had the rails disinigrate,( all of which I have seen at the ding repair shop) he will probably want to trade in his board. He’s going to hear one of two things, “we don’t take those things in on trade” or " the most I can give you is $25.00 bucks. TransworldSurf.com has a pretty inlightening article on this subject, especially regarding FCS fin Co.'s involvement in these boards. For those of you that hav’nt seen it you should check it out, it makes for some good insight between the powers that be. I could continue to give my views on the FCS controversy,But I think every one here can figure it out for themselves. For Tom@Daum, I have a couple of observations. We had a board come in for repair earlier this year. It had come off the roof racks on the frwy and had quite a bit of damage. The center box and fin were destroyed but the side fins (Red-X)were bent from impact and ground down from dragging on the road. No damage to the boxes at all! I was very impressed, to say the least.Also I was in Japan last month shaping and the ratio of Red-X fins being used on my boards over there was about 95% to 5% FCS. You have a great product, I hope you can make enough fins to fill the demand. These boards will have their day in the sun( just like the molded boards, no offense intended to those that go down that road), and people will see them for what they are, which are cheap copies of real surfboards DESIGNED,and HANDSHAPED by some very inovative craftsman here in the good old U.S.A., Thats the way I see it. Best Regards SK
Very well said. I don’t mean to pick at details, but lets not forget about the quality, handshaped boards from places other than the good ol’ US of A. Mine was shaped in Australia, and I love it.
Very well said. I don’t mean to pick at details, but lets not forget > about the quality, handshaped boards from places other than the good ol’ > US of A. Mine was shaped in Australia, and I love it. What’s so great about a handshaped board? If a machine can do it faster and the result is the same (or even better, a perfect cad shape) why would you want a handshaped board? regards, Håvard
Aren’t those machined boards finished by hand? You know as well as I that whoever is there to finish rails and shape concaves (I heard machines can’t do concave, YET) plays a huge role in the board performance. It is one thing if you have a guy who is down with the nuances of board design (whether it be Mr. Rusty or one of his boys), and another to have a factory worker who has been instructed on one or two methods of finishing out a blank. I’ll take a professionally finished blank any day.
Aren’t those machined boards finished by hand? You know as well as I that > whoever is there to finish rails and shape concaves (I heard machines > can’t do concave, YET) plays a huge role in the board performance. I cannot understand why this machine cannot to concaves http://www.kklmachine.com/graphics23.html From what it looks like, i’d say the only finish you’d have to do is sand untill the the grooves are gone, then glass. I bet with some $$$ the machine could finish the blank also.>>> It is > one thing if you have a guy who is down with the nuances of board design > (whether it be Mr. Rusty or one of his boys), and another to have a > factory worker who has been instructed on one or two methods of finishing > out a blank. I’ll take a professionally finished blank any day. Would you if the results where the same, the blanks looked the same and the finished board rode the same? It’s a bit like music, is a gitar sound better when it comes from the real thing then from a computer/synteziser/sampler if it sounds exactly the same? If you like the music, do you really care? I know, the imperfections createdd by playing live/by hand vs. computer stuff makes a difference, but would such human touch and those imperfections make a better surfboard? Is it in the soul or in the name? Is a custom always a superior surfboard? regards, Håvard “tapping on toes” Jakobsen
Would you if the results where the same, the blanks looked the same and > the finished board rode the same? It’s a bit like music, is a gitar sound > better when it comes from the real thing then from a > computer/synteziser/sampler if it sounds exactly the same? If you like the > music, do you really care? I know, the imperfections createdd by playing > live/by hand vs. computer stuff makes a difference, but would such human > touch and those imperfections make a better surfboard? Is it in the soul > or in the name? Is a custom always a superior surfboard?>>> regards,>>> Håvard “tapping on toes” Jakobsen It comes down to design and execution. The Craftsman’s Craftsman will tell you , there is as much junk made in the United States as anywhere… The good , hard working, people in China are skilled workers. It comes down to Corporate Politics, and that could keep this one rolling into a discussion far away from surfing , I hope.
All things being equal, in my mind it would not make a difference. But I don’t think they have reached that level yet. Not to mention the fact that each blank is different. There is still the Human Element to it all. I don’t buy into the whole shaping guru soul deal. It is about refining the process and more importantly, Manipulating the Process for different riders. This is where the craftsmen has an advantage. He can do this on the fly without reprograming. To me a custom board is far better, if indeed, it is a custom. I don’t want a Kelly model that has been scaled up or down to match my weight/height. Kelly does not live where I live and I have nowhere his ability. Machines have one purpose, full on production. The core dimensions and the ability of whoever is finishing them is the difference between a Cobra and a HIC. Until shaping machines are small and/or economical enough for the more people to have them, in my opinion, very little experimentation will be utilized with them. It is just not cost effective.
Very well said. I don’t mean to pick at details, but lets not forget > about the quality, handshaped boards from places other than the good ol’ > US of A. Mine was shaped in Australia, and I love it. OK, but the Australians sell the foam to these manufacturers, trained and set up the factories, knowing the end market would be the US.
It comes down to design and execution.>>> The Craftsman’s Craftsman will tell you , there is as much junk made in > the United States as anywhere… The good , hard working, people in China > are skilled workers. It comes down to Corporate Politics, and that could > keep this one rolling into a discussion far away from surfing , I hope. Håvard, Since you brought up the subject of music, one might inquire as to whether or not the better, really aware musicians (in this case, guitar players) preferred custom, handmade instruments? I used to be a luthier, and my understanding was that nearly all fine musicians sought out the very best handcrafted equipment they could afford. Another curious aspect of this subject that hasn
t been touched upon, are the "fortunate inconsistencies" that sometimes occur in a handcrafted item... interpreted properly, not all mistakes are a bad thing, and often lead to totally unexpected results. In fact, Im sure that I`ve usually learned more from my mistakes than my successes! There have been many of these in the history of handmade surfcraft that have resulted in new insights that never would have been experienced if the design had been a molded, mass-produced clone. So, as it is with musical instruments, I think there definitely is a level where non-custom surfboards can be seen as satisfactory. But beyond that, there is no comparison if an individual is seriously involved with enlightened progression. IMHO. Dale
OK, but the Australians sell the foam to these manufacturers, trained and > set up the factories, knowing the end market would be the US. When the next true, worldwide design revolution, ala late 60`s, takes place (and someday it will), any business that is dependant upon the sales of mass-produced surfboards will fall harder than the big name factories did in the latter days of the former longboard era. Having no latitude in short term design/materials maneuverability is never a good position in which to place yourself for the long haul. Something to consider. Dale
OK, but the Australians sell the foam to these manufacturers, trained and > set up the factories, knowing the end market would be the US.>>>>>>>>>>THESE THINGS MAY HAVE ALREADY BEEN POSTED: The stringers;are doorskin,the foam is soft and delams EASILY,and yellows quickly.THE BOARDS GLASSING:is generally sanded thru/burned,then it is glossed with a,I believe acrylic based or polyurethane substance that delams off the sanded surface when dingeed or is attempted to be repaired.KNOW YOUR PRODUCT !!!Herb
When the next true, worldwide design revolution, ala late 60`s, takes > place (and someday it will), any business that is dependant upon the sales > of mass-produced surfboards will fall harder than the big name factories > did in the latter days of the former longboard era. Having no latitude in > short term design/materials maneuverability is never a good position in > which to place yourself for the long haul. Something to consider.>>> Dale Dale, It could be that this new competition could end up being the impetous for the next design revolution. Necessity is the mother of invention. Your observation that a dynamic change in surfboard design would hit mass producers harder than the big name factories did last time; would be true for molded surfboards. But, CNC router shapes would probably just right another program or cut another medium. The US Auto industry setup factories that were highly efficient at manufacturing large quantities of single model cars with small incremental changes model year to model year. The Japanese built cars in smaller more dynamic manufacturing modules and gained efficiencies through coordination of materials and constant upgrading of capital equipment. It wasn’t until Detroit got their asses kicked from the 70’s oil embargo that the U.S. started emulating the Japanese model. It took over a decade before America started producing quality, cost competative models that were in demand. The key deal is quality. If U.S. board makers can continue to produce a product that differentiates itself with quality from Asian imports; then U.S. board manufacturers will maintain their customer base. But, we also have to be very aware of ways to cut labor costs. Hence, most major manufacturers are using CNC roughed blanks. But, we can’t stop there. The competition won’t until it becomes to expensive to progress further without significant return on investment.
Dale,>>> It could be that this new competition could end up being the impetous for > the next design revolution. Necessity is the mother of invention.>>> The US Auto industry setup > factories that were highly efficient at manufacturing large quantities of > single model cars with small incremental changes model year to model year. > The Japanese built cars in smaller more dynamic manufacturing modules and > gained efficiencies through coordination of materials and constant > upgrading of capital equipment. It wasn’t until Detroit got their asses > kicked from the 70’s oil embargo that the U.S. started emulating the > Japanese model. It took over a decade before America started producing > quality, cost competative models that were in demand. They did it with government subsidies and bailouts
How has this Cosco wedge effected anyone here?
They did it with government subsidies and bailouts And you don’t think that the Japanese had government subsidies. Wasn’t the Marshal plan a bailout?
why doesn’t everyone keep their eyes peeled and report how many of these boards they see in the actual lineups. I doubt i’ll ever see one where I surf. I think most of these boards are destined (like the mass produced body boards) to become a dweller of the garage or the corner of some wannabe’s room only to touch the water at some undisclosed beach on the fourth of july or something to that effect. Unfortunately, when grandkid 20 years down the road pulls one of these puppies out of the rafters they won’t fetch much on the collectors market.
And you don’t think that the Japanese had government subsidies. Wasn’t the > Marshal plan a bailout? Point taken… I need a bail out!
All things being equal, in my mind it would not make a difference. But I > don’t think they have reached that level yet. Not to mention the fact that > each blank is different. There is still the Human Element to it all. I > don’t buy into the whole shaping guru soul deal. It is about refining the > process and more importantly, Manipulating the Process for different > riders. This is where the craftsmen has an advantage. He can do this on > the fly without reprograming. To me a custom board is far better, if > indeed, it is a custom. I don’t want a Kelly model that has been scaled up > or down to match my weight/height. Kelly does not live where I live and I > have nowhere his ability. Machines have one purpose, full on production. > The core dimensions and the ability of whoever is finishing them is the > difference between a Cobra and a HIC.>>> Until shaping machines are small and/or economical enough for the more > people to have them, in my opinion, very little experimentation will be > utilized with them. It is just not cost effective. Regarding shaping machines. If the demand was out there the Asians would build them.I am a woodworker in my real life and have watched the Boys from Taiwan blow the socks of the old time U.S. builders like Powermatic and Delta.Companies like Jet,Grizzly etc are putting nice stuff out at reasonable prices. If the demand for Skil planers was economically feasable they would be knocking them off for a for around a hundred bucks or so. It is all about $$$$$$$$$$$$
They did it with government subsidies and bailouts Capitalism is great, isn’t it? -H