That’s what I said a couple of posts back - this could backfire on Surftech. Surftech’s sales pitch is that Surftechs are proven shapes made lighter and stronger with their technology. This pitch works with a generic “proven shape” from a name shaper. But when you are saying “this is the shape that particular pro rides” and buyers learn the pro doesn’tt ride the Surftech replica of that shape - which is supposedly superior - that’s going to undermine your pitch.
“OPERATION RUSSIAN ICE” RESULTS IN MULTIPLE ARRESTS ON FEDERAL NARCOTICS VIOLATION
an bill what does that have to do with surftech, are those surftech importers or something i don’t know whats happening.
It has nothing to do with SurfTech.
Just a current event, that harkens back to page 4 of this thread around post # 85.
Sorry… the current event is current… the thread is old but for those who find the urban legends of interest, it is interesting to actually seem them flutter to the surface occasionally. Won’t mean much to anyone who doesn’t recognize the names.
Back on track (sort of) here - it should be noted that since the Clark shut down, all the interviews can be taken with a grain of salt. With lack of available polyurethane blanks, quite a few have bit the bullet and changed their ways.
Even a staunch anti-styropoxy/Clark supporter (see below) like Dave Parmenter (not mentioned in article) is rumored to be using EPS/epoxy now. So I guess in spite of all he has said, it’s OK for his disciples to climb on board. By the way - his educated guess that “many Surftechs will fall prey to this syndrome” (the delamination syndrome he describes) has not panned out as far as I know.
(EDIT: A few hours after posting, I checked in with Moondoggies in SLO, Ca and sure enough, D.P. is now in styropoxy mode and supposedly raving about it)
A long time PU/PE guy like Rich Harbour (also not mentioned) is saying it (styropoxy) is OK now. So I guess even Harbour’s guys can now accept it? Whaddaya say Maraboutslim?
Mr Reidel knew a long time ago where things were headed and is ahead of the curve. His riders knew it then and know it now.
I don’t remember where Terry Martin stood on the epoxy thing in the article but I hear from reliable sources that he is gladly shaping his longboards and some stand up paddle boards from EPS and that the glassers at the factory know how to use epoxy.
Does anybody know how many, Aside from Reidel, (and Bert of course - someday in the US?), are offering custom vacuumed sandwich comp technology? I’m talking about major labels - not homegrown tech.
Parmenter Manifesto quotes…
And here is the bad news for the Polystyrene Protestants who want to nail their protests onto the cathedral doors of the Holy Roman Emperor Gordon Clark: Polystyrene (especially the standard bead-foam variety) is a terrible core for most surfboards. Why? It is fundamentally weak. Yet some shapers are so seduced by its lighter weight that they will go to their graves ignoring this fact. Polystyrene foams have terrible bonding properties, especially the bead-foam varieties. Finish it off too smooth and it will offer little skin adhesion when glassed. Finish it off too rough and it will soak up too much resin. It’s not easy to find a good middle ground. Vacuum bagging lamination helps, but there will still be problems lurking beneath the surface that will eventually come back to haunt you. Polystyrenes are no fun to shape. Believe me, I know. I’ve used most of the various types of these foams. I don’t care what anyone says, there is no way that you can hand shape as detailed, exacting and fine-lined a surfboard with polystyrene as you can with a polyurethane blank. No one cares about this fact because most of the major manufacturers we are discussing either use molds or shaping machines to produce their cores. Yet, any manufacturer that needs to shape a prototype plug for these molds or shaping machines almost always make it out of standard polyurethane blanks, because they ‘tool’ better and allow a more detailed, exacting shape. Polystyrene/Styrofoam soaks up water. Like a sponge. When you get a ding you have to leave the water immediately and hang the board up like a hooked billfish so that the water with drain out. This is something the SurfTech literature fails to address. Some of the Polystyrene Protestants will claim that they are using denser, altered polystyrenes that soak up less water. These “extruded” foams are indeed far more watertight. What they fail to mention is that in order for these foams to achieve this they have had to mimic properties of a regular polyurethane Clark Foam blank. So why not just use a polyurethane blank in the first place? Every reasonable and sane board builder since Bob Simmons that has experimented with polystyrene foams has eventually rejected them. Myself included. I shaped quite a few of them, sampling most of the varieties available, and finally rejected them for all uses (except for paddleboards). No matter what you do, or how you tweak the manufacturing process, these foams have inherent, crippling problems when used as a core for most common surfboards. …And those problems will always be waiting for you in the end. One ‘deathwatch beetle’ of any surfboard with a molded, polystyrene bead-foam core is a little-understood stress we can call “thermal fatigue.” This seems to most affect those boards with a bead-foam core - I don’t care if it’s skinned with the most state-of-the-art vacuum bagged/epoxy technology. These boards have a long history of unpredictable expansion and resultant delamination. Thermal fatigue involves the eventual delamination of the skin to the core due to repeated heating and then cooling of the board. These types of surfboards are so vacuum-sealed that they do not tolerate thermal ranges well. The ‘oil canning’, or expansion and contraction, of this airtight core of foam and air will often promote weakening, bubbling and then eventual delamination of the skin from the core. (Remember that bead-foam boards have always had bond problems to begin with.) Often, a small bubble will appear, and after that delamination spreads like a run in a stocking. Most polystyrene-core and/or molded boards in the past have experienced these structural problems. This is just an opinion – an educated guess – but I’d say that many of these SurfTech boards will fall prey to this syndrome. It may take longer than past models, but it will most likely happen sooner or later – it just depends on how many ‘fatigue cycles’ of hot-cold-hot-cold each individual board has to endure and, of course, how well each surfer takes care of his or her board. This is why I believe that the best material for hand shaping and designing most surfboards in the design catalog is the polyurethane blanks such as those I purchase from Clark Foam. The problem is not that traditional materials are inferior; they are most definitely not so. Rather, it is that these materials are not used to their best advantage. Clark Foam cannot control the quality of their product once it leaves the factory (they offer volumes of literature on the technical aspects of surfboard construction, but it is largely ignored). Too many board builders take the low road, usually because the bigger you are the more incentive there is to cut corners. Garden-variety ignorance or indifference is also to blame. Once again, I remind you that I have always felt that the highest quality boards are made by the small-to-medium sized manufacturers that take a lot of custom orders. There are many of these builders out there – they are just not hyped by the surf media. Most strength/quality problems faced by the manufacturer of polyurethane/polyester boards could mostly be countered by choosing a different blank density and stringer, and combining them with higher quality (and more expensive) cloths and resins. Clark Foam offers eight foam densities, each with their own strength-to-weight ratios, yet most in the industry ignore their various applications. The salient feature is “ultralight,” and in the spiraling ‘lightweight arms race’ manufacturers keep dropping foam density and glass – as well as promoting faster ‘dry’ lay-ups that make for lighter laminations but far weaker boards. In addition, there are some common polyester resins that offer superb strength, yet these are also ignored because they aren’t crystal-clear, or are more difficult to work with. Many people get confused when talking about cloths and resins. If you aren’t sure what they are, how they combine, and what each is designed for, then I suggest it is time to do some serious research. One cannot just go around screaming “Epoxy! Epoxy!” as if they are some type of miracle potion. (Remember, all our surfboard materials, neoprene, wax, (etc.) come out of the same oil well.) These plastics are just another type of thermosetting resin – not a magical type of fiberglass or core, or even a brand name. For many, “epoxy” remains merely a buzzword, like “composite” or “rack and pinion steering” or “digital.” Two cores being identical, the one glassed with epoxy resin but with a standard low-end grade cloth will be weaker than one glassed with the cheapest polyester casting resin used with a superior cloth like a 4.5 oz. flat-weave S-cloth. Epoxy has its optimum applications, as does any other resin, but unless you really know what you are doing and how to handle it you are asking for serious, and I mean serious, trouble.
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A long time PU/PE guy like Rich Harbour (also not mentioned) is saying it (styropoxy) is OK now. So I guess even Harbour's guys can now accept it? Whaddaya say Maraboutslim?
Well, I am encouraged by the result Rich is reporting these days. His earlier tests with the lighter foam available then and glassing by a supposed expert shop in his area turned out terribly - delams, denting, etc. When I read those reports, I wanted nothing to do with such a board and could see why he didn’t want to sell them either. But he continued testing, even before the Clark shut down, and is seeing good results now, particularly because he has gotten ahold of heavier weight eps that is now available.
I think they are glassing these test boards in house now (with RR? with advice from Greg? I don’t know) and have got the weight and flex about where they want them to be, which happens to correspond to where I want them to be as well since I’ve loved the boards that Harbour has been putting out all these years. They may turn out to be even better in some way (durability? though i’ve had no complaints with regular clark at longboard/egg glassing schedule), and that would be great, too.
I think there is still the stumbling block of production quantity: same thing Biolos is talking about over in the surfer mag design forum “how long should boards last” thread. If the high production glass shops can’t/won’t do epoxy at a level that medium and high quantity shapers need, then the whole thing is going to stall out.
Hell, because of the health risks, I don’t want to glass poly. But if someone would pay me $25/hr I’d glass epoxy boards all day long (assuming I’m not one of the unlucky guys who are sensitive to it). If it’s as easy as people say, even I should be able to be proficient at it in a short time, huh? Maybe more small/medium quantity shapers will go back to hiring their own in-house glassers since the chemicals are friendlier to have around and smell not obnoxious for the rest of their operation on the premises (shaping bay, retail shop, whatever)?
Is there a need for epoxy glassers out there? Or is the “industry” just going to switch right back to pu/pe as more pu blanks become available and continue using their regular glass shops from before?
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[ 3]Is there a need for epoxy glassers out there? Or is the “industry” just going to switch right back to pu/pe as more pu blanks become available and continue using their regular glass shops from before? [/]
Yep I know someone looking to train an epoxy laminator right now.
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It has nothing to do with SurfTech.
Just a current event, that harkens back to page 4 of this thread around post # 85.
Sorry… the current event is current… the thread is old but for those who find the urban legends of interest, it is interesting to actually seem them flutter to the surface occasionally. Won’t mean much to anyone who doesn’t recognize the names.
WOW! Perry Dane of Haleiwa Hawaii was busted…