Anyone read the ‘Soundings’ article? Pretty neat insights into what’s happening in their sphere of shaping, materials, and function. As a primer, the article interviews the following shapers:
yea i read those interviews …
a few guys were tuned , but most were in denial or didnt have a clue …
a few nice shots of home (west oz ) bummer they were all the regular mainstream places tho …
same old same old , you can drive your family sedan to all those locations , plus parking and facilities …
was going through a friends photos a few nights back , one of my main exploring buddies … he always had the camera …
was shocked at the number of sick waves weve found over the years , when all those photos were in one place , i think maybe 10% actually had surfers in them , the rest were empty line ups in the wilderness …
such a contrast to california …
regards
BERT
Nice to read what Terry Martin had to say. Some nice history and perspective.
Bert’s right about some guys being on and others not. You know Bert, there are so many new things and so many talented guys who just don’t want to apply themselves to making better product. Even the guys who want to involved in new things are waiting around for someone to do it for them. You and Nev are building something so positive through that teamwork.
Used to be a bit more pride in craftsmanship I guess. At least they included one guy, Stretch, who actually owns a surfboard factory in the piece. Seems today most are running around trying to find a product to put their name on without doing any work. I’ve outlined new product to virtually every major player in the surfboard industry over the last 2-3 years. Told em how to do it! You know, just handed em the keys but their scared to jump in, fire her up and take her for a spin. “Oh, we don’t have a glass shop” or “we can’t find someone to do that for us.” If you want something done right … right Stretch?
Then there are those that are quite knowledgable who state that there’s nothing new when all it is is they haven’t used a bit of creativity to pull some things together. Again, haven’t applied themselves. And then they complain when Randy French steals their business. Perhaps “steals” isn’t the right word. Perhaps he’s earning their business away from them. Nothing new? It’s right in your face! Like Bert said, denial.
Where would we be today if Simmons, Hobie, Blake, Greenough, McTavish, etc. hadn’t applied themselves? Still be riding long solid wood boards. This is what I got out of TM’s interview. What wasn’t written there was TM’s impact years ago on production shaping methods. He’s a master. And today’s modern shapers? We’ve had all the advantages and those old guys out performed us in every way!
I was shaping 18 1/2 inch wide, crown deck, single concave, modern rocker thrusters in 1985! What has changed? NOTHING. A little tweek here and there. Where’s the creativity? 20 years! Isn’t anyone else bored? Perhaps the consumer?
Over and over these guys stated, “Yea, I’ve tried alternative stuff.” Here’s a real shocker guys … you put in a 10% effort and you get a 10% result (and I doubt that any of these guys even put in 10%). You put in 100% and you get 100% results! It’s the way the world works and doesn’t RF know it? Randy’s got three technologies he’s developed and marketed over the last 8 years. He’s working on two more as we speak. And he has an 80,000 board a year business to show for his efforts. Except for Stretch, how many have any of these guys produced?
When everyones riding overseas boards because the domestic surfboard industry spent 25 years resting on it’s laurels, I hope some will realize just how costly it was to use up all that creativity thinking up ways around applying themselves instead of …
Greg,
Good points made. I wonder how much the almighty dollar plays into their status quo. What made the really innovative shapers in our shaping history go out and shape their own ideas?
PJ
yea i read those interviews …
"a few guys were tuned , but most were in denial or didnt have a clue … " Sheesh, the arrogance just drips off this statement. Everybody who doesn’t see it Bert’s way is clueless I guess.
"a few nice shots of home (west oz ) bummer they were all the regular mainstream places tho …
same old same old , you can drive your family sedan to all those locations , plus parking and facilities …
was going through a friends photos a few nights back , one of my main exploring buddies … he always had the camera …
was shocked at the number of sick waves weve found over the years , when all those photos were in one place , i think maybe 10% actually had surfers in them , the rest were empty line ups in the wilderness …
such a contrast to california … " This whole bit reminds me of a chronic poster over on the surfermag message board. Nobody has done as much, seen as much, or knows as much… Hey, Bert, do you do any gardening in your spare time?
"Nice to read what Terry Martin had to say. Some nice history and perspective.
Bert’s right about some guys being on and others not. You know Bert, there are so many new things and so many talented guys who just don’t want to apply themselves to making better product. Even the guys who want to involved in new things are waiting around for someone to do it for them. You and Nev are building something so positive through that teamwork.
Used to be a bit more pride in craftsmanship I guess. At least they included one guy, Stretch, who actually owns a surfboard factory in the piece. Seems today most are running around trying to find a product to put their name on without doing any work. I’ve outlined new product to virtually every major player in the surfboard industry over the last 2-3 years. Told em how to do it! You know, just handed em the keys but their scared to jump in, fire her up and take her for a spin. “Oh, we don’t have a glass shop” or “we can’t find someone to do that for us.” If you want something done right … right Stretch?
Then there are those that are quite knowledgable who state that there’s nothing new when all it is is they haven’t used a bit of creativity to pull some things together. Again, haven’t applied themselves. And then they complain when Randy French steals their business. Perhaps “steals” isn’t the right word. Perhaps he’s earning their business away from them. Nothing new? It’s right in your face! Like Bert said, denial.
Where would we be today if Simmons, Hobie, Blake, Greenough, McTavish, etc. hadn’t applied themselves? Still be riding long solid wood boards. This is what I got out of TM’s interview. What wasn’t written there was TM’s impact years ago on production shaping methods. He’s a master. And today’s modern shapers? We’ve had all the advantages and those old guys out performed us in every way!
I was shaping 18 1/2 inch wide, crown deck, single concave, modern rocker thrusters in 1985! What has changed? NOTHING. A little tweek here and there. Where’s the creativity? 20 years! Isn’t anyone else bored? Perhaps the consumer?
Over and over these guys stated, “Yea, I’ve tried alternative stuff.” Here’s a real shocker guys … you put in a 10% effort and you get a 10% result (and I doubt that any of these guys even put in 10%). You put in 100% and you get 100% results! It’s the way the world works and doesn’t RF know it? Randy’s got three technologies he’s developed and marketed over the last 8 years. He’s working on two more as we speak. And he has an 80,000 board a year business to show for his efforts. Except for Stretch, how many have any of these guys produced?
When everyones riding overseas boards because the domestic surfboard industry spent 25 years resting on it’s laurels, I hope some will realize just how costly it was to use up all that creativity thinking up ways around applying themselves instead of …" More than a little hubris here as well. 80,000 board a year business for RF? Never mind the fact that that number scares the beejeezus out of me, as if we don’t have too many in the water already, but who makes up the bulk of his market? Progressive (not pros, who are hardly progressive)surfers? Core surfers? Or the unwashed masses who are currently polluting the sport/art/lifestyle? I suspect it’s the latter. Bert and Greg, I’m not trying to start a battle here; I certainly respect what you guys do. Hey, you’re the pros, I’m just a garage guy. But I do think a little humility is in order (especially you Bert). Maybe your technologies are more advanced and sophisticated (IMO the jury is still out on the performance benefits) but maybe that’s not what everyone wants. And isn’t there room for the retro guys too? Like those who like old cars or wooden boats? Bottom line, I don’t think you need to diminish the opinions of others simply because you disagree with them. Regards!
Bad news Lobster, those unwashed masses are who’s payin the bills. Without them even the materials for boards you build in your garage would dry up and blow away.
As more and more of the domestic market melts away everyday, the obvious denial of Lobster and others fuels the success of the invasion. Keep on makin that poopie crap and see where it leads.
At least we have an answer… what’s yours?
Bad news Lobster, those unwashed masses are who’s payin the bills. Without them even the materials for boards you build in your garage would dry up and blow away.
As more and more of the domestic market melts away everyday, the obvious denial of Lobster and others fuels the success of the invasion. Keep on makin that poopie crap and see where it leads.
At least we have an answer… what’s yours? Geez, a little testy, eh? Answer? To what question, Greg? Payin who’s bills? Domestic market? You see, I don’t think in any of those terms. I’m not interested in the “surf industry.” I wish there was no, “industry.” I’m not interested in buying or selling units. I’m not a manufacturer. I’m not a businessman. I’m unconcerned with the “invasion.” I’m interested in surfing. I’m interested in designing and creating my own rides and surfing my own waves. And by all indications from what I see around me, I’m not alone. Surfing was doing just fine before it went “mainstream.” It has survived the swelling tides of pop culture before and I suspect it will again. The popout manufacturers in it for the quick buck will fade away just as they always have. I do not fear the Surftechs, and the Bics; for crying out loud, nobody I know who is serious about surfing wants anything to do with them. They only sell to those who will never stick with it anyway. When the dust settles, their boards will be plowed under in landfills everywhere. Besides, as far as I see, the pu/pe board and the Clark blank still dominate the “market.” But getting back to “poopie crap,” you claim to make a better board; Bert suggests everyone drink his koolaid or be labeled “clueless.” But I don’t see either of your boards in my neighborhood. I don’t know anyone who rides them. Maybe you’re both big fish in the little ponds of your respective fiefdoms but for some reason, you haven’t managed to convince the rest of us. And like petulant children, you clench your fists and rail at our “ignorance.” Like a fulminate sidewalk preacher, you prophecy an impending doom and a salvation reached only through your vision, your path. I’m not buying it. And as I’ve argued with Bert before, your focus seems more intently involved with the structural side of surfboard construction. I’m more concerned with design aspects. My god, how long have we been riding the damn thruster? And how much longer must we be subjected to the spastic renditions it engenders in the average surfer? What purpose does it serve to build a lightweight, indestructible version of a “poopie crap” design? Greg, you and Bert both appear to be doing just fine with your businesses. Great. I’m happy for you. Be happy for yourself. But it diminishes both of your messages to constantly “poo-poo” those who choose not to jump on your wagon. If you’re having fun doing it your way, and I’m having fun doing it my way, who’s wrong? Regards!
My answer is to keep surfing. And buying boards that are available to me in a variety of shapes, be they this year’s models, my wild guesses at what would work, or the opinion of my shapers who’ve been at it for decades and have put smiles on thousands of surfer’s faces.
Unfortunately for Greg and Bert, they don’t factor in to this because I don’t have access to their boards. Maybe this will change. But as of now, clark/poly is what we have available and surfing it has never let me down.
I can say one thing for sure: dissing the master clark foam and poly shapers will not lead to wider acceptance of new board construction techniques. It’s the wrong path to go down. Do you really think that surfers want to hear that the boards that have given them so much pleasure over the years and stoked them out just this morning are trash? And that the shapers they look up to for providing them with boards that they’ve enjoyed so much are idiots?
They’re not going to take kindly to that sort of talk. I know it turns me off everytime I read stuff like that on this forum. And if it turns me off, a designer that is interested in new technologies, think how much it turns off guys who aren’t interested in anything besides the next swell?
I normally charge for marketing advice. But that one was for free!
thats fine lobster , a certain arrogance was indeed being conveyed …
as someone in the industry , when i read those comments , i took them for what they were , i could clearly see between the lines …
your average consumer takes it at face value …
i agree with greg , let them keep making the same stuff …
i read one comment where epoxy and a standard glass shop cant coexist as one side by side ???
what crap , i ran dual productions side by side thousands of each for over a decade …
setting up another one right now …
its easy to be arrogant when the crew held in high regard for being industry leaders and keeping the industry standard , make comments that show there obvious ignorance or lack of real experience in regard to new materials and technology …
i make a point of trying to be humble , but when you come up against statements or opinions that arent in line with the facts or are somewhat misleading and are put forth purely so someone can stay in there comfort zone , then that brings out an indignant or arrogant side …
to many points to mention , maybe they could be disected and discussed later …
i have to admit , im not a big fan of alot of surf media …
we basically get the same old same old …
i recently read a great article on new guinea , i watched a kool surf movie called unsalted , both really stoked me , show me something i havent seen …
even the surf media can get in a comfort zone and forget to push the boundries as well …
every mag could be featuring a new location every issue for the next 100 years and we still wouldnt get through all the waves on the planet …
that would take that bit more effort , and may not be commercially viable …
im not being cynical or disrespectful , just stating the facts …
there is so much more to come , so many new frontiers to forge , both in waves and in design plus performance …
and yet i read a comment about a guy whos still getting a handle on how to tune a retro design ???
i read a comment about surfing at a point break and once you have the wave worked out you can shape a board for anywhere ???
anywhere in cali ??
be good if the smog lifted off california , so they could see the whats happening in the rest of the world …
its one of the last insulated pockets of surf industry still functioning as it was 20 years ago …
theres a few other places around the world where the concentration of industry has managed to keep the status quo for longer …
mainly due to politics , maintaining a comfort zone and promoting the commercial aspects …
it seems these epicentres of surf culture and industry dont have to put any effort in to make things better and improve things because so many people come to them and except whatever they dish out , any board can be sold effortlessly purely because they exist in a region rich in surf culture , there is an attitude that permeates from these areas , if were not doing it, it cant be worth doing …
so all the real development and cutting edge stuff is being done outside the traditional areas , to the point where even production techniques and standards are being refined in asia , high tech out of france , high quality out of japan , new designs and concepts out of south america , new zealand , south africa , raw technology and development in isolated localities …
every shaper interviewed , was based in an insulated epicentre of surf industry …
in there warm cozy enviroments …within walking distance of the surf media …
looks to me like there all striving to push the boundries ???
be interesting to see what vibe comes out in the next issues …
last week i saw alot of surf media guys standing around with there mouths open …
they got a taste of whats happening in the rest of the world , outside the cozy smog blanket …
regards
BERT
Bert,
You just can’t do it, can you? You just can’t state your argument, make your points, without insulting, pontificating, and ridiculing. Your, “smog blanket” metaphor characterization of Southern California is a gross stereotype akin to those “Aussie for beer!” Foster’s commercials or Paul Hogan’s old “shrimp on a barbie,” caricatures. I suspect you know as little about what’s really going on under that “blanket” as they do about what you’re doing in your own little nook. I’m sure there is far more innovative design and construction taking place in SoCal than you can imagine. Perhaps your only salient point is that it is not yet being publicized in the mainstream media. But that’s they way it’s always been. Until someone truly comes up with the next best thing, guys like you and Greg will have to keep toiling and tinkering away until you prove yourself. But the proof is in the pudding, not the accompanying BS.
Gee whiz, I don’t get it. I don’t get the arrogance and the bitterness of the likes of you and Greg. Just do your thing and promote your product in a positive manner rather than by denigrating what others are doing. If you build it, maybe we’ll come. And if we don’t, hey, then that’s the free market, dude.
Please, for your own sake, reread this wise quote from above; it couldn’t have been said better:
“They’re not going to take kindly to that sort of talk. I know it turns me off everytime I read stuff like that on this forum. And if it turns me off, a designer that is interested in new technologies, think how much it turns off guys who aren’t interested in anything besides the next swell?”
You see, I don’t think in any of those terms. I’m not interested in the “surf industry.” I wish there was no, “industry.” I’m not interested in buying or selling units. I’m not a manufacturer. I’m not a businessman. I’m unconcerned with the “invasion.” I’m interested in surfing. I’m interested in designing and creating my own rides and surfing my own waves. And by all indications from what I see around me, I’m not alone.
lobster , theres your answer …
what you create for yourself is whatever level you choose for your own likes and dislikes , no one would even argue your doing the wrong thing , you have room to explore and refine , one day you may run out of design options and start looking at materials to quench your hunger for knowledge . myself and i would think greg as well dont have the slightest issue with what the hobbiest is doing …
but the industry is in control of what the average consumer can lay his hands on …
how fair that your choices are dictated by others ??
you have a choice to explore any road you want , but your average consumer doesnt , simply because of industry apathy and an unwillingness to look over the horizon …
my sentiments are clearly directed at a misguided industry , not surfers , and not crew who build whatever they can on there own search …
apologies lobster if you feel offended at the term poopee , but no apologies to an industry determined to stay in nappies and have there poopee nice and close …
if they dont wanna grow up , fine , then they just have to compete with bigger kids who put in the effort to grow a little …
if you choose not to grow , you can hardly claim unfair advantage when you start losing the competition …
how about we wait and see …lobster , one day you will see one in your neigborhood , then you can make a fair assesment …
the industry has had more than enough time to explore all the design options , but rather than take the next step of performance through material development and technology , would rather just rehash retro stuff or keep pushing 20 year old stale static designs …
good points slim and lobster , and the choices will increase …
regards
BERT
The two articles on Canada sure got my blood flowing…break out the 6/5/4’s!
Yes, I am talking to the industry lobster, not you. Mark my words, right now, here’s my prediction. By 2010 lobster, without serious changes within the industry, the custom board will be about as hot as day-glo paint. Lobster, you will get your wish, the surfboard industry will be a meer shadow of what it presently is. Talented individuals like the guys in the SJ article of question will be mowing lawns for a living. This is already happening outside of SoCal. In every other market in the US, board builders are going out of business. Bert is seeing the same thing where he’s from in WA. It’s not anyone’s imagination, it’s real. Before 2010 it will come home to the power centers and they will be effected as well.
Many times I’m blunt about the way I put things. If this makes you uncomfortable, I’m sorry. But I’m not going to suger coat the pill everyone is about to swallow. Everyday I sell to companies outside of the power centers. I know what’s happening outside of those areas. The attitudes reflected in the article in question will be the last coffin nail for an industry bent on remaining in it’s comfort zone.
Some things to ponder:
The FL industry currently operating at 50% of what it was a decade ago.
The Northwest, currently experiencing the largest surf boom of any surf area in the US, is loosing custom board builders.
The Northeast and Mid Atlantic are also experiencing industry record lows in spite of record high sales at the retail level.
Only Texas, with a shift in technology continues to hold it’s own.
Outside of CA you would be hard pressed to find a standard surfboard building business that IS NOT in decline. The only ones holding are those who are changing. The reason for the decline; imports, imports, imports. And all this is happening during an unprecidented period of growth within the sport. What do you think will happen when we plateau? Or decline? Who’s gonna loose. Not the imports! Unless we change the game … up the ante.
Do you think 2010 was a bold prediction? Or just some ridiculas wacko ramblings? Consider this … 1959 BOOM. 1969 BUST. 1979 BOOM. 1989 BUST. 1999 BOOM. 2009???
Hey MS and Lob,
We have lightweight wood laminated epoxy boards available for purchase and we ship anywhere. Any paticular size and shape you guys need just let me know. 6 week delivery on custom orders!!, we take credit cards.
warmest aloha,
cp
Can’t help but feel a bit smug when I have sitting on stands in my workshop probably one of the most technically advanced boards in the UK today. I am not a manufacturer, just another backyarder, but I know that this board (my fifth eps balsa only) will out perform anything that I have ridden made of poopee. Just been to Newquay (surf central UK!!!) all the shops have poopee imports, surftec type pop outs and home built poopee, nothing to compare with what I and others here are building and refining in our home workshops. The masses are missing out, not through their own fault. through an intrasigent industry stuck in past protecting their own interests and feeding the ‘unwashed masses’ poopee!!!
You mean I gotta wait another five years for the bust?
hey guys … bert and greg particularly… there are many of us semi mainstream producers who would love to make better more advanced products… speaking for myself of course… one factor has been a problem for me and im sure for many others… im so busy each week just keeping my business machine/staff, bills paid/family happy/ with the occasional surf thrown in. its diffucult making a profit as it is… how do i devote time/money to a trying new methods/materials techinques? its fine for you guys in the home setups to play and create… im sure there are 50 shapers like me in oz who together we would make up 1500 boards a week… we would be what you call poopee industry… how many of us can jump into mainstream production of composite epoxy boards… what part of our week do we get our staff to learn new techniques and stuff a few boards up trying things. who pays for thier learning time? what do i/we give up to start playing with these things bert? yes i would love to make few burger/cmp style boards… but whos got the money to setup the factory and teach the staff maybe go thru a few with epoxy sensivity… the staff are just that … staff… they have no desire to change what they do every week…its all too hard for them… hell 80% dont even know how to use a computer to read the archives here on swaylocks to see the benifits of your system greg… im sure lot of advancements have come from people who have had time to create something and then lots of them have had backing… bert. you have only just had the option of lots of expendable funds to set up things in a good way… youve struggled for years slowly merging from poopee building a core customer base and reputation… i guess what im trying to say is dont write of the INDUSTRY as a whole as most of us would like to make a difference… its just not that easy or fast to change spots on a leopard to stripes with a stencil cutter!
for the record, as the one who coined the term “poopee”
it mainly refers to its easily wearing/fatiguing nature of the materials (big heel dings after first sess…) “its worn out crap” - replace “crap” with poopee
its old technology…“its old crap”
poopee is fun and catchy…better than pu/pe which seems kind dry and boring and hard to pronounce…p-u-p-e…poopee is easier on the tongue
its just and internet forum, not an industry trade show or presentation…just having fun with it
otherwise, poopee its fine for the masses…it has nice flex when new or hardly used…its low maintenance…people rip or cruise and have fun on them…
ok, sorry for the interrupption…carry on…
Its just an idea, but maybe you shouldn’t change your business (at least not yet). Instead you could set up a vac system (you could do it on the cheap for a couple hundred dollars) in your shop to play around with. Make a board for your own surfing every couple weeks. While you were gaining experience working with a new material your staff would be seeing something different and some might be motivated to try it. Your customers aren’t being exposed to your experiments so they are happy, you are opening potential new avenues of business for yourself so you’re happy, and your staff is getting trained without even knowing it so they are happy. I was reading some old posts and that shaping machine of yours does a great job on those balsa rails.