The Vietnam War had a huge impact on the surf culture

Was the Vietnam War good cause for a draft? Did young surfers have an obligation to serve? Did they best serve their country by fighting or surfing?

No doubt this is a sensitive and lasting issue that has strong emotional ties.

And yes, there was a strong surf culture in Vietnam.

We spent 3 years documenting the impact that the Vietnam War had on surfers and did our best to tell a balanced story.

I’m always up for a good discussion on these issues and if your interested check out our documentary film, Between the Lines, The True story of Surfers and the Vietnam War, narrated by John Mlius.

http://betweenthelinesfilm.com/

The film will screen on August 21st at 8 pm in Beverly Hills. A surfboard will be auctioned featuring images from the film. Proceeds will benefit the Rick Thomas Veterans Counseling Center.

Quote:

Did young surfers have an obligation to serve? Did they best serve their country by fighting or surfing?

You should explain these questions better than this.

I have seen the trailer.

Not sure, but I try to avoid the pro-ganja, 60’s era thought, anti-war finger wagging. The trailer had a few

notables from the military and/or surf culture that had sucuumbed specifically to the drug/hippie culture that was at or near its zenith at the time. I am in my 50’s, was

in the military, Army 25th div inf, surfer…fyi!

All this and I only saw the trailer.

I did want to avoid this film.

Specifically in a surf film, I want surfing not politics or drug culture.

My commentary is not meant to be critical or devalue anyones work.the act of war on any peoples is quite devastating there was so much more to that chapter of life, just ask the Vietnamese their side of the story.We have a tendency to romanticize our culture, fact is overrunning a nation leveling it and leaving behind allot of bastard children is not the greatest legacy to our existence.Surfing culture in Vietnam is just a spec of life to the greater issues facing many then young men and women and now old men and women ,both Vietnamese and American that lived and died on their home and foreign soil

that served their nations .Vince and old friend served there during the 60,s when i asked him what it was like he said it was a beautiful country,Vince surfed and quite well he is Davey Smiths oldest brother he ended up helping handicapped children a man with a heart and soul.another i knew was a helicopter pilot shot down that had some crazy stories to tell about flying at night like an arcade game for those that understand.He washed dishes with me when i was in high school a heli pilot washing dishes…Those of us that lived those times watched television at dinner time, enthralled by live action of the war imagine how repulsive that was when you think about it,people getting blown up while you ate your TV dinner.The military industrial complex made sure that would never happen again as now they glorify war and condition our kids with violent videos.Its nice to think that Vietnam was about surfing and i dont think or begin to believe that anyone does but it was allot more than that,way more than that, go in peace and say a prayer for all victims of military suppression as Sting said the Russians love their children too. Aloha…

For me Viet Nam was, my father gone 3 times flying air re-con, unarmed in a C-47, mortor attack on his initial approach to Saigon.

In my junior year at Radford in Honolulu, my grades were so piss poor that the Major made me withdraw from school and go into town and enlist in the Army, I was going to show him, I enlisted in the Marines instead,( I got college sophomore scores on the exams) I came home with my medical papers for him to sign, as I had just turned 17.

We weren’t calling it Viet Nam yet, it was still Indo- China, sure I saw hundreds of young GI’s coming through Hickam every day, but I was only 17 and wanted to surf, surf , surf.

My father relented and gave me one more chance, in his heart, he knew signing those papers was signing my death sentence.

My action for the rest of that year and my senior year was to continue getting D- and F’s.

I did manage to graduate, must have gotten enough D minuses to “pull me through”.

At the end of '64 he was transferred to Dover, Delaware and went for his last tour to 'Nam. I was off and exploring the east Coast by then, that was it for the Major, 200 missions in B-24’s in Europe, then to Japan for the rest of the war. The Berlin Airlift came next, flying C-47’s

He got out long enough to father me and my brother and sister, but Korea was on the horizon and he was recalled, flying C-47’s, air re-con behind North Korean lines unarmed.

There was a period of about 10 years that my Father was NOT at war somewhere, but with the Bay of Pigs, Kennedy assassination he was constantly on ready at high alert.

While Stationed in Hawaii, he delivered the nukes to Johnston Island and stayed there while they were detonated in the atmosphere.

I was a stupid, snot nosed kid and didn’t have a clue as to what war was.

How does this all add up? while evidently not a good student, I was learning how to build surfboards, not just surfboards, but Goddamn good surfboards and with this I build the boards that go with this movie, it is the least I can do for ALL the people who did serve.

After his last tour to Nam, his Commanding Officer came to him and said that he had done all he could do to keep him at Dover, but the brass wanted him back in Nam again, he had over 25 years active duty by then.

This was one of the very few Father and son talks we ever had, he told me he believed in WWII and Korea and went along with the rest of the conflicts he was sent into, but he said this is a young mans war and I am becoming an old man. He submitted his resignation papers and became Lt. Col.ret. Charles E. Phillips.

From that day on life changed for me and my Father, it became father and son, not Officer and his junior subordinates.

He saw I was really accomplishing my goal of being a surfboard craftsman, he died 6 months before I was inducted into the the Hall of Fame.

As I said, obviously a sensitive issue and one that brings forth strong opinions. It’s a hard thing to make a documentary as most that claim to not have an agenda really. Some are all agenda.

We strove to balance the film, but…what we have seen so far is interesting. 1) The subject of the war and the draft is heavy, therefore the film is heavy- no way around it. 2) No matter what opinions you had before you saw the film, few people change their opinions. The film just reinforces their previous stance and beliefs.

People who tend towards right wing pro-military, think the film is a anti war film. People who consider themselves pro-peace, anti-war, think it leans towards a pro-war, right wing agenda.

It’s been an interesting observation as filmmakers. But this does lead us to believe that we’ve told a balanced story. So far the reviews have agreed so while we do not attempt to defend our story or either particular side this has been nice for us.

Re:

“Did young surfers have an obligation to serve? Did they best serve their country by fighting or surfing?”

This is the premise of the film in it’s simplest form. How did young men, specifically surfers, define their freedom? Many surfers volunteered to go to Vietnam and served heroically. Surfers made good soldiers! The reference to “going surfing” is simply a reference to those who chose to avoid the War and draft because they thought it was the right thing to do. I personally would argue that each of these choices offered young men fought for our freedom in different ways and we must honor both of these decisions.

One thing the film does render to the viewer…No matter what you believe on these issues, we must all honor and recognize the men who have sacrificed so much and fought in Vietnam or Iraq or otherwise. Most any person, volunteer or draft evader would stand by that and as filmmakers we do too.

As far as this being a surf film, no, it’s not a surf film in the traditional sense. We do have loads of amazing original images and footage of surfers in Vietnam, surfing in Vietnam and combat footage but if your looking for radical surfing footage you would be disappionted. But it is a surf film in the finest sense of who surfers are as a culture, the spirit of surfers and an event that shaped the surfing culture like nothing else since Gidget came out as total BS. This really happened.

Enjoying the discussion…

Jim,

Interesting we should run into each other here…

We met briefly in Encinitas but didn’t get to speak long. This film has brought many things to light for me. It is a pleasure to see your story and certainly something that is a factor in your participation in this project. Your background and story will be locked in as one of the many personal, unexpected highlites that this process has brought forth to me.

Thank you!!!

Ty

FYI

Jim Phillips is shaping a custom surfboard that will feature some of the most brilliant images from the Between the Lines film and book. This board will be featured in a live auction at the Beverly Hills show on the 21st. All of the proceeds will go to the Veterans Village, Rick Thomas Veterans Counseling Center.

If John Milius was a REAL surfer I guess there might be some credibility to such a hypothesis; but the truth is that he was never more than a “wanna be” on the outer fringe of Malibu circles. In fact most of the people he claims to have known so well were quite a bit older than Milius. I am not saying he never met those people, nor interveiwed them. John Milius and his credibility amongst surfers is like that of many of these “old fat dudes” that that are publishers of magazines and corporate CEO’s for clothing manufacturers; based on the past and myth. Certaionly VM had an impact on “most” of us who surfed and lived thru that era; but to say that it had a “huge” impact is a statement that could only be attributed to someone who either didn’t live thru that era or someone who never went to Fresno for a physical, let alone served or CO’ed. HD McDing

Figures you’re premiering this film in Beverly Hills. Right down the road from where Milius grew up. I never ran into anybody from Beverly Hills when I was up at Fresno. But I did see an American Indian with 3rd degree flat feet get sworn in. (Mine were only 2nd degree).

… excuse me if I’m wrong but weren’t there a lot of other people other than surfers in that (or any other) war? Like golfers, auto mechanics, dentists, musicians, porn stars, clergymen, bikers … I’m not sure I get the point …

Typical Hollywood…

Silly me … I thought Sways was about surfboards …

I will not defend our film and this is not my intention. That is not why I enjoy this discussion.

As far as John Milius goes, while I will not engage you on the facts as you see them, I do not see your point as relevant.

As far as the impact on the surf culture…I will state facts that can be referenced at any time…

The draft age was 18 to 26. The draft was full force between 1965 and 1971. (The lottery began in 1969).

Out of a country with 50 states, 15% (350,000) of those who served in the military during the war were Californians.

10% of the deaths (5822) were Californians. Obviously many Californians were not surfers but the War and the draft was definitely on virtually every surfers mind. If you are not aware of this then you were not around many surfers at the time, Maybe “Fresno”??. Most any surfer will tell you what they did and the choice they made during that time. A choice that they would remember the rest of their lives. 1st classification, then… Induct-volunteer- evade- dodge. These were the choices. At a bare minimum, the few that for some reason there numbers never came up had friends or friends of friends that they lost.

This is all not to mention the thriving surf culture that developed in Vietnam that speaks to the enduring spirit of surfers. I’m not aware of a thriving golf, tennis or badmitton culture that developed over there. Or of any risk that a golfer took to play the game in enemy territory, as surfers occasionally did ( I love golf by the way).

As it turns out it was John Milius that coined the term, " A California War"…Ironic, since based on your opinion he’s not a true surfer, I guess this all lacks credibility.

In the spirit of lively discussion- Thanks -Ty

So My question to you is: Where were you in 1969? And in regard to the choices of the day; What did You do?

Hey, what’s wrong with badminton??? A thriving surf scene??? It’s your money and (thank God) a free country, good luck to ya. My point was - we’re all just surfers and we need to get over ourselves every once in awhile. This seems to be a big problem with our tribe (God, I hate that term), we don’t think we put our pants on one leg at a time like everyone else! Meanwhile I’m going over to the “show us your shop” discussion … seems more relevant for me… and no more dissing badminton!!!

ps - didn’t Col. Kilgore golf?

Easy fellas, just trying to lighten things up here, get it?

No hard feelings, really …

Certainly this is a fair question.

I will gladly tell you. In 1969 I was 5 years old and not to start surfing until 1975.

I, along with my partners were all too young to have experienced the draft.

We are also educated and well researched and serve to tell the facts through the eyes and stories of many surfers who were there as well as statistical facts, a few which I presented. Actually your the first guy who has felt that the War and the Draft didn’t have a “huge” impact on surfers. Kind of surprising to me and I know you’ll find mucho disagreement among surfers from that era. I do however respect you opinion and it would have to reflect in the overall picture.

b martin-

As far as other young men from all walks of life being affected by the War…Certainly and obviously this is the case. We recognize respect the service of all young men! We simply want to tell the stories of surfers as a compelling story that needs to be told! Not a political agenda of any sort…

Respectfully-

Thanks (seriously)for being a gentleman and taking a high road in this discussion, I think it’s a nutty idea, but it is your idea and who am I to judge? I just missed the draft (by ONE year), so i was lucky. Like I said it seems like a narrow view on a big subject … wait, I said I wouldn’t judge … Good luck to ya, see if you can get Jim to get a stateside release for his shaping video will ya? Hey, now THERE’S an idea for a movie …

… or how about a series on different shapers, glassers,wood craftsmen, y’know the blue collar stuff of our scene (God, I hate THAT term too). It would be REALLY cool if it was stories of the overlooked and underrated guys of the past too.

Just a thought …

Thanks to you.

It’s nice to have mature discussions and opinions.

I also like badmittion and shapers. Theres a lot of good inspirations and stories that need to be told out there.

I’ll leave you gentlemen with a quote from one of the folks we worked with closely on the film. Perhaps it will speak to our inspiration.

Q: Were surfers different. Was surfing why you evadaded the draft?

(Paraphrased)

A:

“Surfing wasn’t why I avoided the draft per se, But it did have everything to do with what I was living for.”

Brant Page

Who ! COOL !! I was just sitn at the kitchen table eating a can of Cambel beans and wennies that I opened with my P-38 (yea, I still have it and use it!) Have to be quiet so I don’t wake the VC sleeping in the bedroom across the hall, might get wacked up side the head. Was thinking about my friend John, he was back up in the Ashau valley lastyear and going up again next spring (101st air born) Seems like the guys getting upset by this film are the never been and almosts ! What would they know about Vietnam anyway! Hell! It was over in 75. As for the Vietnamese in California, most of them still think they are going to get their country back ! And what would any of you know about what the Vietnamese in Vietnam think about the war, did you ever ask them ? Why is this film being shown in Beverly Hills anyway? Maybe cause thats where all the bleeding hearts with money hang! How bout a road trip ? I wanna see it too.! Come to Kauai where all the draft dodger came to hide out in Taylor camp. Also all the Closet veterans came to hide from their memories. You want to know what the Vietnamese think about the war or you want to know all the secret surf spots are in Vietnam ? Yea I know! And if you don’t let me see your movie Im going to hunt you down and frag you.! I know who really wone the War! I did, cause I married Ho Chi Minhs great grand nease! So what you think about that ? And tomorrow morning Im going to go up river cause the VC can’t get me there !!! Hoa Binh, Wood_Ogre

Hey! badmittion is the second most popular game in Vietnam and they picked it up from the GIs. Not only that there are 3 golf coarses in Vietnam now and more on the way ~~!! Yah Ha!!! Hoa Binh Wood_Ogre

Quote:

Was the Vietnam War good cause for a draft? Did young surfers have an obligation to serve? Did they best serve their country by fighting or surfing?

I think the real issue is with the above question. Number one…it’s not really a question, but an assumption. " Did young surfers have an obligation to serve? " The assumption here is that there " is " and obligation to serve. If there is an obligation to serve the state…then what is that obligation? My view is there is zero obligation to serve the state and that " in America " …the state was founded for the sole reason of serving it’s people and more specifically…the rights of the individual against the majority. This is not a right wing, left wing, pro military or anti military stance…it’s what our country was founded on…so I pretty much disagree with the above sentence. It would take way too long to debate that and this certainly isn’t the right place for it…but to answer your question.

No…young " Americans " in my opinion had no obligation to serve. However…since our country ended states having rights in 1865…the new federal government has given itself the right to toss you in jail if you don’t submit to certain requirements. In that era it was the draft. The choice was not …is there an obligation ( which again is nothing more than propaganda used to stir the masses…it’s always been jingoism to some degree), but are you going to follow what the law of that time was or were you going to avoid it in some way to prove some point. Some of those that went and followed the law resent those that avoided and vice versa…but there were wrong reasons and right reasons for doing either one.

The second part of the question I take issue with is the term “Young Surfers” or " Surfers " in general. These terms are always tossed around like those of us that surf fall into some tribe, gang or secret society…that we follow some norm or are part of some exclusive elite club when the fact is those of us that surf are as varied as society in the world itself.

I will slip up and refer to myself that from time to time, but I have attempted to carve that term out of my vocabulary because it’s just kind of hokey and I think it was pretty much created by hollywood, clothing companies or magazines so they could make it easier to attach a stereotype and begin marketing. Hollywood never gets it right and neither do most that attempt to write things defining those that surf. There is only the individual experience when it comes to surfing.

Knowing that and knowing that others that surf also enjoy this individual blessing we have all be part of is where the fellowship used to be. Not in made up terms, cool language or fabricated ideals that are supposed to fit us all like a uniform. In fact…what originally caused me to take an interest in surfing was it’s uniqueness and individual approach and that for the most part at that time was anti conformity. Unfortunately because of terms like surfer and magazine articles written to sell product or movies portraying one small group among many…surfing has become one of the largest…conformist…sports in existence. The look, the talk, the attitude even the surfboard shape thats expected.

I read Jim Philips post and that is inspiring. That individual approach. He simply laid out a bit of his life for us and his sign off … gremy who followed " his " dream says it all. Thats to me is what defines not only our sport/art, but us.

Our " individual " unique qualities that shine within our sport and to the rest of the country or world are whats intersting…not the fact that we surf.

Vietnam was just another tragic event…I think the surfing experiences some may have had over there may be interesting…but…Did young " surfers " have an obligation to serve in Vietnam…doesn’t interest me in the slightest. It’s an old worn out debate in a country where going to war has been sold as some sort of right of passage and disagreement with the government has now become anti American rather than uniquely American.

Was the vietnam war a good cause for the draft: Man this would take was too long and cause way too much ruckus for this forum.