I agree with Bill Thrialkill,
I personally prefer wide noses AND wide tails in most surfing conditions. I love the rail line and control of my pintail single fin gun in BIG waves. That is were I’VE found narrow tails to work. In small waves, i cant beat a wide tail. as far as thrusters go, i like swallow tails for 2-8’ surf.
others have there own opinions but this is what works for me.
to be absolutely honest
it dooesnt really make much difference me
although wide noses suck if its 30 knots offshore
i can hardly tell the difference between a squash round swallow etc etc
all i really care about is if it catches waves and paddles easy and is short enough to turn and pull into barrels
and when your in the barrel the last thing your thinking about is the tail shape
its the surfer not the board
swallows may work okay but the design is pretty stupid from a practical standpoint
everytime i see one the corners are broken off
but then again fine points on the nose arent very bright either
good for spearing someones eye or keeping the repair guys buzy
thats about it
OK then forget it just go for it surfboard design makes no difference at all I didn’t realise that now but I have seen the light thanks very much for helping me to realise what a waste of time it is thinking about tail area most surfboard builders don’t so they must be right next time I will nail a rubbish bin lid to my tail as penance for having thought about it too much in the past or better still take the whole tail away completely no point in being logical hey?
and when your in the barrel the last thing your thinking about is the tail shape it is if your sliding out missing the tube of your life because your tail is to wide
its the surfer not the board still a good board makes the surfer surf better
swallows may work okay but the design is pretty stupid from a practical standpoint tell that too Mark Richards and guys ripping on them like Matt Wilkinson
Swallow’s provide a wide tail but have more holding power due to the two pins. a good factor in modern shortboards…
haa
i thought that would get a few heads up.
really though roy your designs are extreme so it obviously does make a difference.
but when you loookat a modern short board in the carpark
and guys are going yeah i like rounded pintails swallow squashes with triple concave etc etc etc
and it looks like every other shortboard in the carpark
at the end of the day only a pro could tell the difference
becuase the boards are pretty identical in rocker plainshape fins and fin position length etc etc
Swallow’s provide a wide tail but have more holding power due to the two pins. a good factor in modern shortboards…
in thoery!
however a larger stiffer fin will make more and perhaps a real diference to holding power
also i inch width is not gunna make hardly any difference in the tube unless it a big heavy wave that wants to suck you up the face
in average conditions head high and some
i see guys pulling in to heavy barrels on a shorty or a 9 foot mal
they both can make the wave
at the end of the day the board that gets me in early (before the wave pitches me into the bank)is the board for me
im sure mark has swallows with broken points in his quiver as well
but when you loook at a modern short board in the carpark
and guys are going yeah i like rounded pintails swallow squashes with triple concave etc etc etc
and it looks like every other shortboard in the carpark
at the end of the day only a pro could tell the difference any surfer who understands there surfing should be able to feel it.
becuase the boards are pretty identical in rocker plainshape fins and fin position length etc etc I can see what your saying but for a surfer who understands there equipment it becomes another step to increasing performance by fine tuning equipment.
Quote:Swallow’s provide a wide tail but have more holding power due to the two pins. a good factor in modern shortboards…
in thoery!
however a larger stiffer fin will make more and perhaps a real diference to holding power
but surely not all surfers like the feeling of a large stiff centre fin.
also i inch width is not gunna make hardly any difference in the tube. 1" is a MASSIVE difference in surfboard design!
im sure mark has swallows with broken points in his quiver as well a layer more glass and your sweet!
okay then
what if i said to you that compsands improve performance dramatically
and is like another 5 steps forward
far more than a concave or tail shape
and that riding poly was detriment to your surfing
becuase the materials are letting you down big time;)
btw i can feel the diference in board design nuances
i just dont think it makes much diference to the kind of session your gonna have
you can have the best session on a dunger or crap sesh on the best board in the world…
the best design element you could put into a board is a sac that secrets a chemical into the water
that turn staunch dickheads in to happy cats
waddya reckon ??
re stiffer fins
i dont really mean the middle one particularly
i just think fins and rail shape have way more to do with holding power then tail shape
and ive got a 6 10"pintail minigun that i have to baby in high speed turns cuz the fins are plastic shite and wash out
and a 16 inch wide tailed 6 2" that holds in solid surf because the fins are stiff and a bit thicker/larger
okay then
what if i said to you that compsands improve performance dramatically i’d be inclined to eventually add one to my quiver.
and that riding poly was detriment to your surfing
becuase the materials are letting you down big time;) I am all for the whole compsand thing, i think its great! but truth to be told i’ve seen much better surfing on poly boards. i’m not saying poly boards go better but hey it’s done every top surfer for the last 50years fine!
re stiffer fins
i dont really mean the middle one particularly
i just think fins and rail shape have way more to do with holding power then tail shape
and ive got a 6 10"pintail minigun that i have to baby in high speed turns cuz the fins are plastic shite and wash out
and a 16 inch wide tailed 6 2" that holds in solid surf because the fins are stiff and a bit thicker/larger yes I agree! fins DO change a surfboards performance probably more then any other aspect. however were loosing track of what the thread is about… Tail width.
I agree with you on some of your theory’s. including compsands and fins drastically enhancing performance. however just because you can enhance performance and one aspect why would you ignore another aspect that could make your board go even better?
Cheers!
well, i’m jumping into this thread a little late & i don’t speak as one with authority about all this stuff that’s for sure. all i can do is share my feelings about tail width.
from my experience, however limited, wider tails go faster than narrower tails. i imagine this is because increased surface area = larger planing area = increased speed. for this reason i like riding wider tailed (read: fish) boards in smaller surf (instead of boards with less surface area in the tail) simply because they fly. this is precisely why i put widertailed boards away when the surf gets good & overhead, because the boards overload in terms of speed & are difficult to handle. they go very fast but spin out.
so when it’s smoking & big & the waves are quick enough already, i don’t need to generate speed, instead i need to actually slow down to gain control & not overload. for this reason i turn to boards that have increased rocker & less surface area in the tail (read: pin or squash tails). these narrower boards are easier to control in high speed situations precisely because they sit lower in the water & go slower.
anyway, that’s my two cents.
true josh
i gotta say this stuff rattles around my head all day
and its mostly just random thoughts
if i go back to some of my old posts
i go “shit did i actually say that”
just thoughts aye
but thats half the fun
i agree with oldy to some extent
Yeah Silly, i admit to overthinking surfboards, sometimes I should just mellow and have fun.
Happy surfing.
riding an inch and a halph roun’tail
with hair,is a long time dream
I plan to lose a lot of weight but I dont think that
I will be able to ride rex’s tail without a reincarnation
as a flea or tick.
Does rex wear a flea collar?
…ambrose…
ROY…love the yellow
more than the red.
the blake school template
is a facination worthy of years of attention.
mele mele
…
tombloke,
It seems that your agrument is that longboards cannot use rider energy in order to accelerate because they have hull shapes which are not suitable for the purpose. . . . . . if so your theory has more to do with shape than length.
Longboard riders can use kinetic and torque, or as you describe it, “rider energy” to accelerate, however talented shortboard riders can generate rider energy more efficiently.
High performance modern shortboards like the board ridden by the young surfer in the story of my earlier post are stripped down to the bare bones; all excess foam is redundant leaving a hull that reflects the basic elements of ALL efficient modern surfboards, I’ll come back to that later.
All surfers utilize kinetic energy by emphasis of energy transfer to the front or back foot.
In the case of the young surfer in my story the bottom was a typical concave, deepest just at the leading edge of the front fins and if viewed sliced at that point flat across the bottom then cupped close to the rail.
The plan shape was typical with the widest point just aft of center allowing the entry rocker to set into the wave face as he drove off the front foot. The exit rocker accelerated off the tail balancing a wide squash to take advantage of the back foot energy transfer.
The basic elements….
Plan shape -Stringer rocker – Rail rocker - Entry rocker – Exit rocker
As noted above the plan shape is widest center or just aft creating a pivot point at the same spot the front foot sits, the entry curve also comes to this same point or just aft.
The plan shape pulls in just forward of the front fin cluster the same point the toes of the rear foot sits. The concave being deepest here effects the rail rocker causing it to be more accelerated in the exit on the rail (at the leading edge of the fins) than the stringer creating another pivot point at the back foot (in conjunction with the plan shape )
Note; the surfer does not have to move his feet enabling him to being more responsive to the energy transfer between front and back foot and therefore more efficient tapping into the rider energy.
The trick is to start by balancing the entry curve with the exit curve for the style of the surfer waves they want to ride.
Doesn’t matter short or long, vee or concave wide tail, narrow the elements start with the rocker, the entry curve – exit curve
TomBloke,
OK then forget it just go for it surfboard design makes no difference at all I didn’t realise that now but I have seen the light thanks very much for helping me to realise what a waste of time it is thinking about tail area most surfboard builders don’t so they must be right next time I will nail a rubbish bin lid to my tail as penance for having thought about it too much in the past or better still take the whole tail away completely no point in being logical hey?
Tom, welcome to the stunned mullet club
According to “the Dinkum Dictionary” A ripper guide to Aussie English,
Like a stunned mullet:… bewildered; surprised; astonished.
Nik
The more I learn, the less I realize I know!
Josh
if you are ever to have a chance to surf big Margaret River when Tony Hardy is home from walkabout, its a joy to paddle out if only to watch him carve through the barrels on a 8’0 wide nose wide tain single fin!.. legend
Nik,
founding member of the stunned mullets club
Yeah true
I would just like to include a some personal observations from my own experiences. For nearly 10 years now I have been riding alot Geoff McCoys boards and anyone who knows his style boards would recognize that he favours very wide tails and added thickness. I have ridden them in both single fin and 3 fin versions, with tails widths in the small nugget versions around the 18 inch mark. What can make these boards go fast is that a larger a person can ride a smaller board in a small wave allowing you more manouverability, also with a wide tail you to get into the wave earlier which gives you more speed and options as to where to place yourself on the wave to draw speed from. On these boards you need to ride off your back foot on the tail so the wide tail gives speed and support to the back foot surfer who can benefit from it. People who surf the board further forward or off the front foot probably would not benefit and feel the tail dragged and not be helped by added tail area.
Riding a wave is not a static form where such get to your feet and run with it there are not that many perfect experiences where that can happen, to experience speed you must interact with the wave and get yourself and the board in the critical part of the wave where the power and speed is. A wide tail will hold speed for longer allowing you to run over dead spots or wide on the shoulder for long cutbacks and longer arcs with continuous speed. But the narrow tail will hold tighter in critical sections where there is also a more intensive speed burst of energy.
Also the other factor is short boards gain speed by having the ability to be pumped up and down along the wave which will generate much more speed than by just standing still, if the board has the ability to be pumped which wider tails and multiple fins allow for the board will generate great speed.
There is a beautiful swell at moment tomorrow should be great.
Regards
Per your comment above, about wider tails and multi fins allowing a board to be pumped for speed. That technique flowered in the single fin narrow mini gun era. In the beginning of what is now termed “the shortboard revolution”, the descriptive term in the day was “mini-board.” A mini-board by definition was any board less than 9’0’'. The point being that pumping as a technique seemed necessary to move lighter narrower boards through sections where they could not glide through with a combination of higher surface area, and weight.
Thanks Nik! i think i might just do that! soon too.
yeah
just look at morning of the earth
there pumping like.
well
um
pumpers?
Point taken Bill, pumping aint nothing new.
But if it aint pumping then sometimes you gotta do some pumping, till you got it pumping.
That aint no new thing.
Regards