I have a fish that floats me like a longboard. 6x21x3. It does not paddle like a longboard period. It is a shortboard that paddles better than a shortboard with similiar dimensions. Length is needed for paddling speed. Look at the guys who paddle long distances. Do they use short thick boards? No. They use very long boards to get the glide.
Steve.
maybe what we are really discussing here is bouyancy(sp?).
a thick poly board is going to be different than a thick epoxy board, and you need less eps to get the same bouyancy as pu/pe, correct? so, bert’s boards are therefore able to be thinner as they are more bouyant, where as those using pu/pe need a bit more volume to have the same effect. if your body is in the water up to you shoulders, there is that much more mass that you are pulling - drag - through the water, as oppsed to being supported on top of, or out of the water by a bouyant material.
now, wether you accomplish this by thickness, or width, i guess is your choice. isn’t volume the total displacement of the board? so a thick narrow board would displace as much water as a thin wide board? - maybe that’s wrong, i don’t know, hence the ?
in my green mind, rocker - entry mostly - will have a huge effect on paddling ease. release off the rails next. but anything that reduces drag is what your after to create an easy paddler. how it rides once going is going to be a comprimise.
?? All you have to do is go surfing on a big day. This will settle the question about thick vs thin. Let’s see, hummmm. what is a gun shape. same 8-15 ft Hawaiian scale swell. At Pipeline they are surfing 8’ x 18.5" x 2.4"…at Sunset same swell 9+" x 19.75 x 3. You won’t see many 6’6 x 18" x 2", why, it’s not because of performance. It’s paddling power and floatation.
Well, as boards get longer, they must get thicker or they will snap. You’re not going to see any 2" thick 9’+ boards (unless they’re made of Timber like Roy). In my very unscientific surfing experience, it is length more than thickness that gives more paddling ease for transportation (i.e. back to the lineup, fighting the current, etc.).
Nativeson, wasn’t there a long thread on this idea that EPS is somehow more bouyant than clark foam and the conslusion was that bouyancy is not a result of the materials so much as simply the weight of a board?
Yes, longer boards do help out when a lot of water is moving around. But, length doesn’t = floatation. Width and thickness = floatation. From my limited backyarder experiences, the only reason for thinner boards is for the responsiveness, mowing more foam from a thick blank won’t make it that much lighter. Lightness comes from the hand that glasses it, and the weight of cloth. Thinner = more responsiveness.
But, length doesn't = floatation. Width and thickness = floatation.
But floatation doesn’t = paddling power.
thanks native…you read my mind.
im reading the posts, lots of figures being thrown around and no mention of board weight…im not disagreeing with the other posts here, its just that when you talk about paddle/float, the board’s weight is a huge factor wrt to a very narrow design range…its a factor thats been ignored for a long long time and has been debated on sways at length…i should mention tho that if youre using the same materials over and over, and designing similar boards then weight is not a big factor cuz youll end up within a very narrow weight range anyhow…but to put things in perspective (my own), all other things being equal, there’s no comparison between and 7 pound shortie and a 5.5 pounder float wise…and theres a certain point where a float diff does matter paddle-wise, within a very specific board design range.
but hey not many of us can make a five pounder so maybe my argument is weak…im biased…hmm, six pounders are almost as good and are quite doable
I thought the general conclusion of the “Myth of eps foam” thread was that the weight of the actual board is a miniscule part of its overall float. I guess either I, or Meecrafty, need to go read it agan:
http://www.swaylocks.com/forum/gforum.cgi?post=235291;search_string=eps%20float%20poopee;#235291
meecrafty, well like minds i guess…lol
Slim,
well i don’t know if that thread is exactly what i mean, but my real point was that whatever the board is made out of, if your body is in the water there will be more drag, as you pull yourself, and the board through the water. if less of me is in the water, i am going to be that much faster, and effective in my paddling.
if that means more bouyancy, great. if that means lighter, fantastic. if it means less dense - unlike me - wonderful. whatever you want to call it, you just got to reduce the drag, or you are literally fighting yourself.
i think the point about the paddle boards being long also proves a good point. but, like a log, which paddles easily - any nay sayers there? - it may take a few good pulls to get the thing going. but once moving you can paddle with one hand to keep your momentum up. i know, have a 10’er and she paddles like a dream, once going.
in contrast, my latest fish, the opposite of the 10’er, paddles almost the same way. it has super flat entry, and low overall rocker, hard edges, and thin-ish rails. i can catch waves outside with the loggers, or pounce on a late inside dumper too because its only 5’8". at just under 2 7/8 in centerx20 3/4 she’s got some thickness, as well as width.
so, if thickness isn’t the key, you have to have floatation to get the board up, on top of the water - or yourself at least, to paddle efficeintly.
as we all know the darn wave has too much to do with wether we catch it or not, so what are really talking about here? the ability to get from a to b, or wave catching? any board under skilled feet can catch a powerful wave - you just may not want to keep riding it once you got the wave…
From the Dick VanStraalen interview… without permission, sorry, but adds to this thread…
“However, it is good that people are opening up to the possibilities for different designs:- people are riding a greater range of boards. I’m getting loads of orders for my Fish and Pocket Rockets. It’s going crazy. People like them because they’re easy to catch waves on, you’re not sitting up to your tits in the water.”
So that must have something to do with the float/weight/bouyancy whatever…hey?
Very well put SteveA.
i should have been more specific at the start of this thread. i just surfed my last two seshies on a 6’1, 2 1/8 thick. it floats me up to my nipples. when im on my 6’4 thats 2 5/8 thick, it floats me belly button area i guess. so theres a difference, and it also catches waves much earlier.
what i was reffering to in my original post is that once i go over 2 5/8ish it doest add anything to my paddling speed. although my thicker board paddles way faster then my thinner boards. a 3 inch board, witih the same dimensions and measurements and rocker as my 6’4 X 2 5/8 will not paddle better. it will only feel slower and less responsive.
just the same, a 4 inch thick board would not paddle better. i think its everything, obviously, but width and length are the biggest contributors. ah!
I find that the width of the tail also has a lot to do with “wave catching” ability. A board that has a wider tail will catch waves better than boards that may be longer, thicker, and wider in center (or even all three). I guess this is pretty obvious since it provides more area for the wave energy to push (up) on, but for some reason this point hasn’t entered the discussion yet. Probably because this thread is about “paddling power” and not wave catching, per se. Two different things.
You are right on about tail width and wave catching ability. And that does relate to paddling speed. If it didn’t we would be talking about paddleboards.
I thought the general conclusion of the “Myth of eps foam” thread was that the weight of the actual board is a miniscule part of its overall float. I guess either I, or Meecrafty, need to go read it agan:
Slim,
The weight of a board only subtracts a ‘miniscule’ amount from the overall buoyancy if we are talking about high volume lightweight boards !. . . . . . if we are looking at heavy, low volume boards the opposite conclusion applies… . . . .
Hi Swaylockers,
I was reading through the threads and came upon this post in which the discussion goes exactly to a problem I’ve been facing: A couple of years ago I had a board that sunk under me and would’nt paddle well let alone catch waves. I ran into an old shaper friend of mine (I am not a shaper) who insisted I need more “float” in terms of thickness. I also asked for a board that I could ride either as a twin w/ a trailer (2 +1) or as a thruster. Bottom line is I ended up going from a 6’5"X20"X1.75" that wouln’t float me at all to a 6’6"X21"X3" that consistently hangs up at the top of the wave. It floats my 5’11", 185 lbs. extremely well, and surprisingly surfs really well once I pick up the wave, but I’ve had to try multitudes of fin scenarios to get it there. With the FCS vectors and hatchet or standard in larger surf it is responding better, but since the beginning I’ve not been able to catch waves, always having to take off late, especially in bigger surf…and it’s not in the arm strength or ability.
I don’t know anything about rocker or overall volume and spped in paddling but something isn’t right withthis board not being able to get a “bite” into the wave until too late. Also the fins were placed against my better judgement as a compromise between where you place them for a twin or a thruster…he split the difference and thought it’d work just fine. I’ve experimented with this board for over a year now and have all but resigned myself to needing a new one. Please help me get it right this time. I like to surf fast in the pocket but come hard off of turns and make hard, snapping or sometimes drawn out off the top…this board hangs up badly - design suggestions/dimensions that you or anyone could provide would be greatly appreciated…also if you can suggest a particular CI, Rusty, or Lost template that you feel might fit the bill that’d be great too!
Thanks,
Dave