titebond3 vs epoxy (hws)

General Discussion
1

It’s getting down to the wire for the planning phase of my wooden fish. I’ve already ripped the planks, and am just waiting on a dado blade in the mail to cut the shiplap edges. So, I’ve gotten a lot of really helpfull feedback on this subject from everyone, and have narrowed my adhesive choiced for the frame/joining my deck slats down to titebond3 or using RR epoxy. Benefits of titebond… easier to work with. Benefits of epoxy… same adhesive between the slats and coating the entire board when finished.

I’ll be headed down to cerritos on the 22nd, but hope to begin assembling before I get a chance to talk to everyone there. Thank you in advance for any input.

pat

2

Hey SFP,

If you are using cloth on the insides, I would go with the epoxy, no cloth would need a more solid glue. Is titebond the consistancy of silicon, comes out of a tube?

3

Thanks for the response Hicksy.

here’s something from the titebond manufacturer’s site:

"Titebond III Ultimate Wood Glue is the first one-part, water cleanup wood glue ever offered that is proven waterproof. The waterproof formula passes the ANSI/HPVA Type I water-resistance specification and offers superior bond strength, longer open assembly time and lower application temperature. "

and the link:

http://www.titebond.com/…ine=94&prodcat=1

In the “gluing and clamping pine” thread Doc and Doug (dougirwin13) talked about it a bit. They talked more about using titebond II, which is one generation back. They are both wood glues, but III is supposed to be waterproof.

here’s some info from the ResinResearch site about a couple of their epoxies:

"2020 EPOXY

High impact strength for absorbing impact loading. Higher elongation than our 2000 resin. Provides clear, blush free finishes with excellent UV stability. Used for coatings, wood penetration, bonding of structural parts. laminating of synthetic cloths and high gloss finishes.

2040 EPOXY

Even higher impact srength that 2020 providing laminates that are very resistant to maring or cracks from impact loads. Also provides a high degree of flexability when disirable. Also excellent UV stability and high gloss finish."

In terms of strength, I’ll be using cloth with epoxy on the inside, and epoxy only on the outside. I haven’t been able to determine if titebond or epoxy would be stronger, but think that I would have better penetration with epoxy. Titebond says not for structural use or use below the waterline, but the entire board will be sealed with epoxy. Plus, I’ve read that Paul Jensen uses wood glue, and I’ve never heard of one of his boards falling apart!

I’ve got about a week to decide, and if I end up going with the epoxy will probably be waiting a bit longer for my order to come in.

Thanks again.

Pat

4

I used stuff called Liquid Nails inside all my HWS, It has the consistancy of thick toothpaste, stays where you put it, really strong, nothings ever let go inside any of them.

http://www.selleys.com.au/itemDisplay.aspx?ItemID=5

5

That liquid nails stuff looks just like a stiffer form of gorilla glue:

http://www.gorillaglue.com/great.htm

it’s an expandable polyurethane glue?

I’ve used gorilla glue on some building projects around the yard, but the bond doesn’t seem quite strong enough to take the abuse I’m sure my boards will have to endure: constantly getting pitched off the lip due to poor operator skill, etc.

I’m basically trying to find a bond where if something is going to break, it’s the wood and not the glue joint.

pat

6

Hey there Superfatpat.

I use titebond3, epoxy, and polurethane glue in all of my boards. Just consider each part and what it’s function is. does it need to hold under tension where epoxy is best suited. Each glue is designed for a purpose and has a pretty specific clamping pressure required.

7

Hi Daniel,

Yeah, I’ve realized that my one size fits all approach to adhesives probably isn’t the best, but my lack of experience has been playing head games with me.

pat

8

Hi Pat,

While I haven’t built a HWS, some things to follow up what Daniel said- plus a little glue experience.

For instance, the skins on a Paul Jensen-type hws are backed with glass or carbon fiber, plus glass on the outside. Bonding an epoxy-laminated inner skin to wood - well, as you might imagine, wood glues won’t do terribly well on those, no matter what the manufacturer claims.

here’s how I’d play it;

Wood-wood ( tight joints) : a Titebond product, the waterproof nature of the Titebond III shouldn’t be necessary, but hey, it does have a longer pot life.

Wood-wood where the joints were less than ideal, and who doesn’t do one of those now and then? I sure do… Polyurethane glue, like the Gorilla Glue. It has some nice expanding qualities to it.

Laminates-anything: use epoxy, unless you used polyester laminating resin to do the lamination. Pick your epoxy with some care, as well as your clamping strategy. If the stuff is thin, a little cabosil mixed in might keep it from drifting out of the joints while they are being assembled and starving 'em such that you have stretches of your joint that are not really that well stuck down.

A ‘dry run’ of your major glue-ups is a very good idea, dry fit everything and then clamp it so that you have your strategy down and have enough clamps ready and on hand. I can’t really emphasize that too much, having been bit by that more than once with the consequences of imperfect glue-ups and lots of work-arounds to make it come out okay.

‘enough clamps’ is kinda like a mathematical idea, you can get close to having enough of the things but never quite there. Have lots, plus a few extras for just in case.

hope that’s of use

doc…

9

thanks Doc,

that was exactly the kind of walk-through I needed. confirmed my general thoughts, and really puts my mind at rest. I hope to start getting some pics up in the next couple of weeks.

pat

10

I have built two hollow wood boards and I have to say doc advise is dead on.

11

Just a quick followup, being as I got to play with some titebond III for the first time on the job today:

Color- a kinda beige before it’s gone off, it would blend well with your average balsawood. Hardening, it goes a little translucent, didn’t see it fully dried so I couldn’t tell ya. Might also be a better choice for oak than the II, just on color principles.

Consistency - think of Titebond II with a little cabosil. It doesn’t brush out as easy as the II, I found that the move was to put down a bead and use the brush almost vertical to kinda plow it around, mebbe wiggling it a bit side-side to get it there. You can , using a brush, ‘cut to’ a line, but you leave a bead of glue off the side of the brush there

It definitely doesn’t drool out of the joints like the II or most of the other yellow glues. So you can load up the glue, it seems to scrape off with a fingertip ok if you do it quick, spillover doesn’t soak into the wood like the II and leave something that needs sanding before a stain or something goes on.

I think it also stays nicer on a vertical glue-up than the II, and may fill gaps better, so that if like me your mortise and tenon joints could be tighter, well, it’d be a help.

Pot life/open time - I went to lunch, came back and my brush was still usable ( about 50°F, in the shade, out of the wind) which seems to indicate a longer open time than the II.

Strength, durability? Beats me, it’ll be a few years before I have an intelligent answer to that one.

And, with any luck, at the end of this month I will be getting out of doing house carpentry for a living ( after 35 years of hating it) , so I may never know…

doc…designated fishmonger…

12

thanks doc!

I’ll let you know what I end up going with.

pat

13

It’s getting down to the wire for the planning phase of my wooden fish. I’ve already ripped the planks, and am just waiting on a dado blade in the mail to cut the shiplap edges. So, I’ve gotten a lot of really helpfull feedback on this subject from everyone, and have narrowed my adhesive choiced for the frame/joining my deck slats down to titebond3 or using RR epoxy. Benefits of titebond… easier to work with. Benefits of epoxy… same adhesive between the slats and coating the entire board when finished.

I’ll be headed down to cerritos on the 22nd, but hope to begin assembling before I get a chance to talk to everyone there. Thank you in advance for any input.

pat

14

Hey SFP,

If you are using cloth on the insides, I would go with the epoxy, no cloth would need a more solid glue. Is titebond the consistancy of silicon, comes out of a tube?

15

Thanks for the response Hicksy.

here’s something from the titebond manufacturer’s site:

"Titebond III Ultimate Wood Glue is the first one-part, water cleanup wood glue ever offered that is proven waterproof. The waterproof formula passes the ANSI/HPVA Type I water-resistance specification and offers superior bond strength, longer open assembly time and lower application temperature. "

and the link:

http://www.titebond.com/…ine=94&prodcat=1

In the “gluing and clamping pine” thread Doc and Doug (dougirwin13) talked about it a bit. They talked more about using titebond II, which is one generation back. They are both wood glues, but III is supposed to be waterproof.

here’s some info from the ResinResearch site about a couple of their epoxies:

"2020 EPOXY

High impact strength for absorbing impact loading. Higher elongation than our 2000 resin. Provides clear, blush free finishes with excellent UV stability. Used for coatings, wood penetration, bonding of structural parts. laminating of synthetic cloths and high gloss finishes.

2040 EPOXY

Even higher impact srength that 2020 providing laminates that are very resistant to maring or cracks from impact loads. Also provides a high degree of flexability when disirable. Also excellent UV stability and high gloss finish."

In terms of strength, I’ll be using cloth with epoxy on the inside, and epoxy only on the outside. I haven’t been able to determine if titebond or epoxy would be stronger, but think that I would have better penetration with epoxy. Titebond says not for structural use or use below the waterline, but the entire board will be sealed with epoxy. Plus, I’ve read that Paul Jensen uses wood glue, and I’ve never heard of one of his boards falling apart!

I’ve got about a week to decide, and if I end up going with the epoxy will probably be waiting a bit longer for my order to come in.

Thanks again.

Pat

16

I used stuff called Liquid Nails inside all my HWS, It has the consistancy of thick toothpaste, stays where you put it, really strong, nothings ever let go inside any of them.

http://www.selleys.com.au/itemDisplay.aspx?ItemID=5

17

That liquid nails stuff looks just like a stiffer form of gorilla glue:

http://www.gorillaglue.com/great.htm

it’s an expandable polyurethane glue?

I’ve used gorilla glue on some building projects around the yard, but the bond doesn’t seem quite strong enough to take the abuse I’m sure my boards will have to endure: constantly getting pitched off the lip due to poor operator skill, etc.

I’m basically trying to find a bond where if something is going to break, it’s the wood and not the glue joint.

pat

18

Hey there Superfatpat.

I use titebond3, epoxy, and polurethane glue in all of my boards. Just consider each part and what it’s function is. does it need to hold under tension where epoxy is best suited. Each glue is designed for a purpose and has a pretty specific clamping pressure required.

19

Hi Daniel,

Yeah, I’ve realized that my one size fits all approach to adhesives probably isn’t the best, but my lack of experience has been playing head games with me.

pat

20

Hi Pat,

While I haven’t built a HWS, some things to follow up what Daniel said- plus a little glue experience.

For instance, the skins on a Paul Jensen-type hws are backed with glass or carbon fiber, plus glass on the outside. Bonding an epoxy-laminated inner skin to wood - well, as you might imagine, wood glues won’t do terribly well on those, no matter what the manufacturer claims.

here’s how I’d play it;

Wood-wood ( tight joints) : a Titebond product, the waterproof nature of the Titebond III shouldn’t be necessary, but hey, it does have a longer pot life.

Wood-wood where the joints were less than ideal, and who doesn’t do one of those now and then? I sure do… Polyurethane glue, like the Gorilla Glue. It has some nice expanding qualities to it.

Laminates-anything: use epoxy, unless you used polyester laminating resin to do the lamination. Pick your epoxy with some care, as well as your clamping strategy. If the stuff is thin, a little cabosil mixed in might keep it from drifting out of the joints while they are being assembled and starving 'em such that you have stretches of your joint that are not really that well stuck down.

A ‘dry run’ of your major glue-ups is a very good idea, dry fit everything and then clamp it so that you have your strategy down and have enough clamps ready and on hand. I can’t really emphasize that too much, having been bit by that more than once with the consequences of imperfect glue-ups and lots of work-arounds to make it come out okay.

‘enough clamps’ is kinda like a mathematical idea, you can get close to having enough of the things but never quite there. Have lots, plus a few extras for just in case.

hope that’s of use

doc…