hi Mitch !
how's things ?
have you had any more surfs on , or got anything more to update , about this
[ your cutaway keel with trailer wood board ] , please ?
cheers mate !
ben
before ...
after....
Hi Ben.
No, nothing at all to report I’m afraid. Too busy! Never fear, I’ll update as soon as.
Cheers,
Mitch
That’s my current board, 5’7"x18.5x2.75. Very thick, nice and wide chop tail. It can glide, I don’t have to pump down the line on most small waves if I don’t want too. I thought 5’7" would be really short, but it’s not. Now I have no fears going to 5’4". Could be wider and shorter, and needs a bit more tail rocker. The last 3" of nose appears to be useless, so might as well get rid of it. I forget how wide the tail is and where the fins are, which would help me right now. But I’m away at school and can’t measure it. I drew stuff like this:
Basically I looked at my current board and a retro fish. Both of which are floaty and fast. I figured the extra edges in the back (from the swallow) with fins further back will hold and drive slightly more, while the extra width will make it looser/slide more. Net effect of 0. The decrease in length but large increase in width should be a net positive for surface area and speed. Shorter+curvy outline=quick turns. Increase in tail rocker would enchance pivot and skateboard-ness, nose rocker would remain similar to my current board. I’ll probably throw in a little trailer fin for some thruster like qualities, mainly the rail to rail speed generation. I’ve got a futures t1 set that would pair well with this. 3" front rocker 2" tail seems about right. I have a board with 3" of nose rocker, that I measured anyway, but in fast surf where the waves get steep quick I tend to nose dive. But it’s 6’4" and 21" wide, it’s just way too much board for me. Overall flatter rocker though, like that teal board. It seems that regardless of rocker and tail width, a 5’4" will turn quite a bit. So might as well go flat and wide. The main thing is it just looks right in my mind, the idea of a short wide curvy board seems right to me.
The board would hopefully be fast, stable for landing airs due to the width, and able to turn on a dime. I can do fs 360s and fs airs on a skateboard, looking to bring it over to surfing. Especially in the closeout-fest that often occurs in jersey, airs seem like a fun move to bounce off the closing section with. It’s not as simmons-y as yours, but I believe we’re looking for a slightly different ride. I’m also 5’5" and 120lbs, so I don’t need a lot of board under my feet.
[quote="$1"]
hi Mitch !
how's things ?
have you had any more surfs on , or got anything more to update , about this
[ your cutaway keel with trailer wood board ] , please ?
cheers mate !
ben
[/quote]
....six monthly check-in ...
have you ridden it much , Mitch , with those cutaway keels we all helped you with ???
cheers
ben
Hi Ben and everyone else.
Sorry for the hiatus. I did get my
two week fix of surf in June in the magnificent beach breaks of central
western France but since then have been too busy with work etc to get
back. (It’s one of the many sacrifices of family and fatherhood!). I
can’t explain my joy at the performance of my board! The combination of
reducing the surface area of the keels, reducing the toe-in and moving
them back a few inches had the wonderful effect of increasing the speed
of the board as well as giving me smooth, intuitive control! I couldn’t
have been happier. Tightening the fin cluster definitely loosened it up
as did cutting down the fins a little. I maintained the centre
stabiliser where it was and perhaps I got lucky but it feels just right.
I gave the side fins a much smaller amount of toe-in which got rid of a
LOT of drag and considerably increased the down the line speed as well
as the ability to carry that speed through dead spots. Another advantage
of less drag is the enjoyment of surfing really small waves! The very
concept of a planing hull is, well, planing! That is, riding on top of
the water with little friction. Wacking two great keels on with a fair
bit of toe-in flies in the face of this and retrospectively is pretty
obvious! (Tyler Warren’s “bar of soap” designs feature low but long
keels which look pretty much parallel. It’s a good example of all design
elements working together and being as important as each other!). It’s
been a great experience modifying the fins like this and I really
recommend it as a first fix if you’ve built a board and it doesn’t feel
quite right. (It’s much easier to cut and modify fin position than
reshape your board or start again!). Now I’ve got them in a good
position that works it would be great to have fin plugs to do a bit more
fine tuning and try out some variations. However, with the frequency of
my surfing and considering how happy I am with the board, this may not happen. Perhaps my next board…
Here’s an excerpt below from my diary about the board. I was still buzzing when I wrote it so please allow me the indulgence!
Sunday was a magnificent day. Hot and nice offshore winds fanning the
corduroy lines of solid swell spitting, sucking and draining across the
fantastic sand banks. We hit the beach as a family and had a play,
strictly between the flags. The beach was heaving with the Bordeaux
weekend crowd and it was reassuring to have lifeguards on duty with the
guillotining waves out back and the powerful surge inshore. The
shoreline was a perfect place for the kids to run, splash, jump waves,
build sand castles and dams for the waves to smash.
I had an hour
surf on the high tide but I found the hollow waves very challenging.
Pitching wider than their height, the waves were tricky for me to take
off on without being pitched by the lip into the shallow banks below. I
copped a hiding but loved every minute of it! The boogie boarders were
having a field day and were stuffing themselves into every hollow wave
that rolled through. Just being in the water in these conditions is a
joy and better than any art gallery! I did get a few waves and was
really happy about the performance of my board. A few nice turns
completed, feeling like a hot knife through butter. This board is
certainly smooth! My fitness is really improving at last.
The rest
of the afternoon was spent running around keeping the kids and my wife happy
and enjoying what was turning out to be a splendid (UK) fathers day. I
love being a father despite the difficult moments and love my family
dearly.
We were invited to a BBQ in the evening but I was allowed to
bail for the surf. It was pristine and even my wife knew it would be
sadistic to not allow me to go.
The local crew were on it and I
shared the bank with about 15 others. These guys knew their stuff and
were pulling into everything and making it out of many tubes. It was a bit overhead and perfect. My confidence was up and the locals made
it obvious what was the ideal spot to sit as the waves scythed over the
shallow banks. I caught a few nice ones and took a few trips over the
falls into oblivion too. You shouldn’t be laughing under water whilst
bouncing off the compacted sand bottom but it was one of those nights
when everything is so perfect that happiness just radiates from the
centre of your being! This is not hippy shit, it’s just how it was.
The
highlight was a perfectly lined up wave, feathering in the light
offshore wind with me in the pole position to catch it. It was sucking a
lot of water off the bank and really standing up nicely. Four strokes
and I knew I was in. Pause, push up slightly, feeling the swell lift my
board then pop, up onto my feet feeling the speed and rush as I drop
into the glassy pit, lip cracking down beside and well out in front of
the wave. It was walled up all the way down the line and was beginning
to pitch in front. Charged with adrenalin, knowing that my board’s
positioning was just right, I could hear a funneling kind of silence
overtake me. Slightly crouched, the fingers of my right hand hissing
through the zipping face of the wave as the lip engulfed me, locked
inside the most perfect moment. The strong sunlight coming from the west
illuminating the inside of the wave bright light-blue on the wave face,
right through via light green to dark green on the pitching lip.
Hovering in that beautiful space for only a few seconds, the wave backed
off and allowed me a clean exit and already I was bursting with the
most amazing feeling. I shot out, full pelt on the high line of the wave
not bothering to turn, just allowing the speed to carry me, elated, way
out onto the soft shoulder and into the shallows. I got a few more
waves but guilt started to override pleasure and I decided to call it a
day and get back to the BBQ. The last wave was a repeat of the epic one
except this time the whole wave closed down, locking me in the hollow
space between wave and thrown lip. The sound thrashing was worth it and
I’m still smiling two days later!
Reading back on the above I realise
it’s a very self indulgent piece of writing but I know I’ll appreciate
it when I’m old and rheumy and my mind is dimmed and full of cobwebs.
These “peak moments” in life are what it’s all about. The birth of your
children, meeting your wife, good friends, great family, an immaculate
barrel, they are the things that you don’t want to forget!
The surf
is very small now but a testament to the unusual design and versatility
of my board (very wide, very short “planing hull”) was the surf I had in
1 foot waves yesterday. The little waves were zipping down the banks
and were great fun to catch and trim down the line. These would have
been pretty poor rides on a modern design but great fun on my little
nugget of a board. It’s especially rewarding having built it myself!
WOW !!
THANKS for that , Mitcho ....SUPERB !!
Mate , that is definately NOT 'self-indulgent ' at ALL , in my books ! *
" The highlight was a perfectly lined up wave, feathering in the light offshore wind with me in the pole position to catch it. It was sucking a lot of water off the bank and really standing up nicely. Four strokes and I knew I was in. Pause, push up slightly, feeling the swell lift my board then pop, up onto my feet feeling the speed and rush as I drop into the glassy pit, lip cracking down beside and well out in front of the wave. It was walled up all the way down the line and was beginning to pitch in front. Charged with adrenalin, knowing that my board's positioning was just right, I could hear a funneling kind of silence overtake me. Slightly crouched, the fingers of my right hand hissing through the zipping face of the wave as the lip engulfed me, locked inside the most perfect moment. The strong sunlight coming from the west illuminating the inside of the wave bright light-blue on the wave face, right through via light green to dark green on the pitching lip. Hovering in that beautiful space for only a few seconds, the wave backed off and allowed me a clean exit and already I was bursting with the most amazing feeling. I shot out, full pelt on the high line of the wave not bothering to turn, just allowing the speed to carry me, elated, way out onto the soft shoulder and into the shallows ...."
[ aaah yessss !! .... surfing is as good as , if not actually better , than sex , sometimes ! ]
..... with literary skills and obvious S T O K E like you have demonstrated above , you should be writing for The Surfers Journal or Surfing World or The Surfers Path , perhaps ! [ I've read articles much less enlightening and visual and stoke-filled than what you just wrote , in 'other' publications !! ]
It's refreshing to find someone literate and lucid enough to be able to put into words the sheer thrill of surfing [ something there needs to be MORE of , on surfboard design and surfing forums , by the way !]
....that was worth waiting SIX MONTHS [??!! YIIIIKES man ! .... where have ya BEEN ?!!] for , for sure !
Sounds like almost a completely different board to what you posted on the original thread of 'Pico's , ALL those months ago....
I'm really stoked that those fin modifications made that much difference to you !
....I think I should print this out for people who tell me " but , mate , fins don't make THAT much difference to a board ! " [haha ... I D I O T S ! The people that say that have usually either had 'glassons' all their lives , or one set of fins rusted into their fcs / probox / futures / lokbox / 4 way / redex , etc ...WHY have plugs and finboxes at all , in that case ? Or , why not just ride finless , maybe , so they can feel how much 'fins make no difference " ?! ha!]
Please , keep surfing that board , Mitcho [as if you need to be told ?! ] , and stay in touch as to what else you learn about the fins' performance , it's how we all LEARN , here ! [pm me instead , if you get no response here on the forum , because I , for one , DEFINATELY want to learn more about fins' effect[s] on how yours , and others', boards go !
cheers , Mitcho !
ben
* ....I've always thought it's a real pity , if someone's fear of being labelled " self-indulgent " for sharing their S T O K E stops people sharing stuff .....
.....By contrast , WITHOUT sharing of the good times , good surfs , and good boards , and good experience , internet forums can run a very real risk of becoming real downers , at times ....
Thanks mate!
I wasn’t sure how that board would handle seriously pitching waves, being so wide. But thinking about it that design makes sense in the barrel. A “flat”, straight and fairly sharp rail, combined with a fairly parallel (to the rail) keel fin with good surface area is really going to hold you in there. Minimum drag means it’s very fast and the fact that it’s probably only the rail and 1 fin really engaged with the wave means that width isn’t such an issue. The short length of the board probably helps stop it from tracking and the slightly bellied nose helps to keep it from catching.
I think I got lucky with the combo. I’d be interested to try some tall
narrow fins in the same board. The opposite to keels really. I haven’t
seen too much experimentation with these . (There may be a reason for
that.) The Mirandons in Cali use a bamboo variety in their “twin fin
pins”. Eli Mirandon rips on them but then again he’d rip on a barn door.
I Imagine they would be even more loose but maintain hold. Has anyone tried them?
I’m interested to shape another similar “mini-simmons” inspired thing.
I’d like to get some subtle swallow into the tail. I think it would help
to slow the board a little and let me get a bit more vertical.
Narrowing the tail is not the idea as it gets away from the 10" minimum
planing width, so perhaps a swallow tail would work? Manuel Caro shapes these
very interesting boards under his Mandalla label like this. As does
Aussie’s own Daniel Thompson. His shapes are insane. Check him out if
you are not familiar: www.tomosurfboards.com
I know I go on a bit, I’ve gotta get out more! I’d certainly be interested to see what you have in mind. I thought 5"6’ was radically short when I first started thinking about my design but it really doesn’t feel too small. I suppose its stable due to its width and not squirrelly either. My nose rocker is pretty small at about 3 inches but its never been an issue. It’s a bellied nose with high pinched rails up there and that helps a lot. Also, as its not pointed, there’s less to catch in the wave! Flat rocker and a wide planing area seems to be key with these boards. (It makes paddling and catching waves a breeze too!) I was tempted to stick more tail rocker in but I opted for a “safer” 1 inch! I have no complaints so far. What would be really interesting is a stiff flex tail on one of these but I think that’s a little ambitious at this stage for me. Keep us posted.
Are you thinking of hollow wood or a more traditional route?
hi Mitch !
here's the small , fairly upright , small base fin that I mentioned to you a while ago . I found a shot that gives the dimensions , again [as I no longer have it , or several others I made that were similar , too !]
Also, here's a carbon fibre inlay '747'-type template , also upright ....
cheers mate , keep the stoke burning !
ben
Just curious, what procedures did you go through to remove the old fins, your work looks very clean. I’m considering taking some glass ons I made off one of my boards and replacing them with something a little different. Right now now it’s a twin, MR style fins. But I was considering the keel with a break in the base, cause that seems lke the best of both worlds between drive and looseness/pivot. Plus they could be further back.
And one more. All other things equal, how much would you say getting rid of the tow in changed the turn characteristics? I’m considering doing no toe in, but I’m kinda worried about how that will make it turn since I like to pivot a lot (hence why I ride twins). I feel like it wouldn’t be noticebly stiffer in a turn, but the decrease in drag would be easily felt.
How big is that board anyway? And your diary is very well written.
Hi Ben.
I like the look of the top one actually, but I was interested to try somthing even taller and more blade like. I’ll try and find a photo to illustrate later. Those 747 ones look interesting, how do they perform? My only point of reference for fins is what I see on animals. A few billion years of evolution can’t be wrong!
Cheers for your input as ever.
Mitch
Hi DrZoidburg. (Great name BTW!)
to remove my fins I very carefully ground out the resin and glass rebate at the bottom of the fins with and paper disk attachment to my drill. I’m sure an angle grinder would work well too. I ground it out to the point that the find just snapped out with a bit of pressure. It wasn’t too difficult at all.
It’s hard to say what effect the tow in reduction has made as I made a few changes all at once. I reduced the surface area of the fins, moved them back a few inches as well as greatly reducing the tow in. It’s certainly faster and maintains that speed through flat spots more. The board feels more responsive now but I’m sure it’s due to all the factors. My gut tells me that a tiny bit of toe in will work better with a single foiled side fin. I think Tyler Warren makes his Bar if Soap boards with parallel, dual foiled keels so there’s clearly more than one answer. I’d say just go for it. Do what makes the most sense in your head. Once you realise how easy it is to remove your fins and reglass them then it frees you up to experiment. I tacked my modified ones on to begin with then glassed them properly once I was happy. (Ben would suggest fin plugs which isn’t a bad call. I just found it simpler to glass em on. But then again I had the complication of hollow wooden construction. )
My board is 5’6" x 23" x about 2.5". Not your average set of numbers but it works.
One other thing I’d like to say is that if your board isn’t a dog design wise, ie, if it paddles, trims and turns, I think our bodies and brains adapt to it. That’s the weird thing about fin placement. I obsessed over them, got it wrong, adjusted them to a more nuteral position and I think my brain/body did the rest. (I hope that makes sense?)
Don’t be scared, just give it a go!
Thanks for your comments on my “diary”. It was actually from a private online blog I keep for posterity and for my family back home in Australia. One blog takes the place of about a dozen personal emails!
I hope this helps. Just to add, I’m not a pro or a professional shaper. These are just my views base on my personal experience and there may be people out there who know more that may be able to give you more informed advice.
Cheers mate and happy chopping!
hi Mitcho !
the 747 fins were always used as side fins with a back fin , so the full effect probably was not really as evident as it 'may' have been , were they made as a larger template version , used as a twin fin setup only .
I can't remember WHO ended up with these , so , for now , no further test rides by me are possible with this particular set.
cheers
ben
Here’s the mirandon fins I was talking about. These are more of a hockey stick design than I remember! Somthing else to think about!
thanks , Mitch !
yep ,
THOSE are similar to mark / dan thompson’s ones , shown in action , in the GREAT footage of him absolutely ripping the bag out of it on his carbon fibre fishes and fins at big lennox and vicco . That was a 5 minute feature , “unearthed” , which was at the end bonuses in the “home” dvd by Australian Surfing Life …put out ?last year? , from memory …
cheers
ben
I’m not gonna quote what you said cause it will take up the whole page, but thanks for he details. I totally agree that despite where you put stuff, you’ll adapt, assuming the board isn’t actually terrible. I was gonna do 5’4" or 5’5" by 21 wide, but a bit more curve in the nose and tails. I’m into trying short, stubby boards, I’m looking for a pivot feeling like being on a skateboard I guess.
hiya Mitcho !
further to our conversation ,
here are the narrow ones I mentioned ...
and , tilting it , as I mentioned , to make it more upright / deeper ....
Also , a slightly larger template ....
By the way , these are not the finished templates yet . I will take some of the trailing edge curve out of the base of the second one pictured , and slightly change the leading edge curve on the first one ...but , these are just to give you an idea of some fins I'm working on , that "may" be similar to what you described / had in mind ? [or not ?!]
...needless to say , when they are thinned / foiled / finished / plugged , I'll give them a test run , and post them up , under the non-vocal "tinkerer " [ on the 'my fin tinkerings' thread]
cheers Mitch !
ben
I usually am no good at doing rocker on the computer, but I tried. I don’t know why is says 0 at the nsoe, it should be 3.
I’m not too educated about rocker. But my idea here was curve under the back foot for pivoting and brakes. Flat under the front foot, so if you weight your front foot it will accelerate. My giant 6’4" board does this very well, with the back foot=brakes front foot=accelerator feeling. Entry is just to avoid nose dives and stay above the water during vertical things, doesn’t appear to curvy so it shouldn’t push water. I’ll have to study rockers of boards I/my friends have when I can.