uh - oh more china board stuff!!!!

this is the letter i wrote to swaylocks - maybe you should do the same!!

real nice guys (SWAYLOCKS) - way to go - keep that china surfboard stuff coming!!! love it - you went from core board builder site to posting boards for sale from china - single worst thing for our u.s. domestic surfboard manufactures!!! way to support the troops!!! there was one ad month before last - this month there are SEVEN - maybe next month it can take up over half of the QUIVER “for sale” section since it came really close this time! but i digress, lets all just put our heads down stare at our fins - “dont worry everything will work its self out” we can say. i say support yourself, your board builders and their choice for livelyhood in surfboards!

this is not in regards to surftech epoxy stuff it is about polyester boards!!

i bitch because i love!!!

maurice

the average swaylocks reader is interested in building boards not outsourcing them, I think its actually pretty funny that they are paying money to advertise and support a forum that is pretty much against them.

So I say lets let them advertise and pay Mike some money for this amazing resource.

Hi Maurice -

As far as I know the ads are free and anyone can register and list stuff. The subject linked Google ads are another story. I think those advertisers pay by the click(?)

There is no specific policy banning Asian (or other ethnic group) manufacturers from listing their products. People are basically on their honor to use the service wisely. Unfortunately, some folks take liberties and post, post, post until no one else has space left.

It has been noticed but the moderators don’t have access to that area and Mike has a real job. I think he takes them off once he gets around to it.

They’re gone, or at least moved to the archives now, right?

Notwithstanding John’s comments, but Maurice, are you a bigot? a protectionist? What made america “great” was entrepreneuring free trade right? So if you can’t beat em join’em right? Maybe this guy in china is just following the “american dream” and building his own business now that the big honcho’s in Beijing have discovered the wonders of capitalism and international trade. I would have expected americans to applaud these chaps entrepreneuring boldly into a market they know nothing about, quite the cavalier adventurers if you ask me. Not that I am a client for them but I do think alot of this anti-asian sentiment is hypocritical and racist. Your country is the world biggest multi-ethnic capitalist business oriented society in the world what is your problem with other guys trying to do the same? I am not speaking about the quality of their product, as I build my own boards for my own use. Please open your eyes and take a good look at yourself and your own heritage, I am sure some of Madison’s vision prevails under all that fear of the unknown. I used to think surfers were open minded progressive people but more and more I see narrow minded bigotry.

As for any abuse these guys make of swaylocks’ advertising, that is Mike’s issue and not for us to judge how Mike runs his website.

For the chinese guy advertising on sways, maybe you haven’t noticed but we probably aren’t your best market as most of us here build boards ouselves but hey, you know what, create local demand too! Teach some groms to rip in your local waters, heck sponsor a talented young guy to travel to breaks all over the place! Its a wonderful sport above all, the business is secondary.

“Not that I am a client for them but I do think alot of this anti-asian sentiment is hypocritical and racist.”

i think what maurice was saying was more to do with a western oppertunist taking advantage of the profit margin afforded by paying employees somewhere in the ballpark of a few dollars a day with no piss breaks and the lax conditions surrounding there quality control , environmental impact in the plant , on the people in it who have no unions, lawyers , pensions, 401k, health plan or rights… . . not so much with the asian element in china whom of wich have the work ethic of a post 1929 depression era farmer ( harder than a coffin nail ) be understanding that asking a guy at ford to drive a daewoo with a smile on his face just isnt that easy. . .

Well, I will admit that I own more of these “China Boards” than most Swaylockinians, I don’t exactly see what you have against them, to me they ride fine, thats not to say they ride as good as some of these wonderfully beautiful boards I have seen shaped on this site. For me, when I first started, I learned on these boards and that is what I knew for the following couple of years, they were durable and my boards have lasted well for the past 5 or so years, so I guess good product. I have broken 2, maybe user fault maybe manufacturers… I dont know, I will say a little of both. I have recently shaped a SUP that is a hand shaped epoxy and I absolutely love the glide and ride it produces. Don’t bash something just because it comes from another country. I think that this might be the wrong place to advertise as we are all interested in creating pieces of art with our hands, hence all the positive discussion of shaping. If it weren’t for many of you on this site, I probably wouldn’t have delved into shaping or been so positively encouraged to take on the task of shaping a SUP. Let them advertise if they want. Who really cares that much, the majority of boards advertised aren’t China boards, they are hand shaped boards.

Anthony

Maurice Agnello good friend of China. You come here to manufactory and make boards. Tom Eberly here shape boards. Sam Cody here paint boards. Bill Bahne here make fins. You make more cheap. You make more $$$!!.

Boards now $10.

I was rather surprised to see the advertisements on this site too, but my take on this matter is that just because a product is advertised does’nt mean you HAVE to buy it. I think most people know what they want. If someone wants to purchase a product made overseas, its his/her choice. A lot of the products we use and consume are imported. Are we gonna start condemning others because they drive and imported car? Seems like the domestic surfboard industry is being affected much like the auto industry was years ago. In order to compete and stay afloat you have to build a better product with a reasonable price tag, which I realize is easier said than done.

The China thing again. Should I look outside to see if the sky will fall on my head while I’m at it? I saw a flying pig this morning as well…

Quote:

The China thing again. Should I look outside to see if the sky will fall on my head while I’m at it? I saw a flying pig this morning as well…

lol! the sky IS falling. . . . . sucks eh. . .

http://youtube.com/watch?v=AShBoF1FPSE

I read tons of really stupid things from the kooks in this group about China. I am not picking on you specifically, but the “union” comment was the last straw. Here’s the deal: I live in China and work at a surfboard factory part of the year and live and work at a California factory the rest of the year. The factory in China is OWNED by the workers union! You guys really are completely clueless, so I’ll clear up a few of the most common misunderstandings:

Skill Level- The average factory in California might work on 6-12 boards a day. The average Chinese factory does 40-60 per day. The Chinese factories have training manuals, expert technical ad visors and rigid standards for accuracy and quality. California factories have NOTHING like this. Chinese workers receive formal training and have very consistent work flow. I’ll put a Chinese laminator with one year of experience against a ten year vet from California ANY DAY!

Workers Pay- The average Chinese factory worker earns a middle class income for their area. The average factory in California lives below the poverty line. The average Chinese factory worker owns transportation (usually a scooter), a cell phone that takes pictures (I don’t have one of those) and lives in an apartment at least as large as the condo I am paying $400,000 for in California. They have TV’s, stereos and DVD players. They have health insurance. They are regular people. For decades California surfboard builders have been working for nearly no pay at all- just so a bunch of you guys can hold on to a fantasy.

Greed- The idea that surfboard builders who have product made in China are “greedy” is the most retarded idea ever! EVERYTHING is made in China, surfboards are just plastic, guys. Forget all your bullshit hippie ideas about magic carpets with souls. The surfboard buying public and the industry it’s self have been merciless to the board builders bottom-line. …so what, now a guy who’s been busting his ass for twenty years might finally be able to buy a house in the town where he went to high school?! Maybe now your shaper can afford to take his wife on a nice vacation to the place where half of his customers go every year?! You want sellouts? How about Quicksilver, Billabong, O’neill, DaKine and every other “surf company” that does not make boards and makes millions from selling clothes Macy’s! What’s so bad about board builders finally having an R&D budget? Do you want better boards or not?

Health and Safety- The Chinese factories have written Health and Safety Policies and Procedures. Workers are provided with respirators and fresh cartridges, gloves, aprons etc. Ventilation systems are state of the art. The factories employee full-time workers who do nothing but sweep and dust and all floors are mopped EVERY day. All workers attend Health and Safety classes. California factories are dirty eco-hazards, where guys work in dangerous conditions. I seriously doubt you could convince the average Chinese factory worker to step foot in the average California factory. The average California board builder has never even seen a factory as nice as the average Chinese factory. If a Chinese factory worker moved to San Diego any shop would want to hire them based on their skill level and work ethic and personallity, but the Chinses worker would have to accept a lifestyle down-grade to live in San Diego for what the factories there are able to pay vs. cost of living. That’s a fact, folks.

Labor- The average Chinese factory is married, middle-class and between the ages of 19-40. There is no child labor. Period. The average work day is 8:30am-5:00pm with an hour for lunch. The work week in six days (in California do I get even one day off?!). Workers Comp is paid for every Chinese worker. So is Health insurance.

As for the never-ending sniveling you backyard hacks do about “pop-out’s”, until you’ve seen one made you’ll never know how wrong you are. There are over 30 skilled hand steps involved and NOTHING is injected in a mold (save for the pre-shaped blank- just like Clark). One day surfers will build statues of Randy French for standing the stagnant surfboard world on it’s head and challenging antiquated ideas, materials and techniques. We’re trying to move toward the future of surfing and you guys are hanging on to some dream about smoking a joint, turning up the Eagles and working in your backyards. Surfing can’t move forward until boards move forward.

If, like most people on this board, you are a back yard “weekend” shaper and you don’t derive 100% of your income from making surfboards- SHUT UP with your opinions about the industry and what other people do with their own business. You don’t count.

As for all the China haters: you are really just a bunch of bigots! And for all the surfboard companies that talk shit and act like they are “home grown”- I make your fucking boards over there and I have pictures you don’t want posted, so tighten up, ya hypocrites!

I live there. I work there. Those are the facts.

Quote:

this is the letter i wrote to swaylocks - maybe you should do the same!!

real nice guys (SWAYLOCKS) - way to go - keep that china surfboard stuff coming!!! love it - you went from core board builder site to posting boards for sale from china - single worst thing for our u.s. domestic surfboard manufactures!!! maurice

The “single worst thing for our u.s. domestic surfboard manufactures” has been Global Surf International- the worlds largest surfboard company, run by non-surfer Mark Kelly out of Thailand, not China! No wonder you never saw it coming. Do your homework. GSI has been wholesaling boards for $99!

Good reply , plenty to learn and understand.

BUT

I just can’t help myself , call it humor

Quote:

The factory in China is OWNED by the workers union!

I live there. I work there. Those are the facts.

Isnt “Workers Union” code talk for Peoples Republic of China.

thats the giggles part.

But , in earnest, now here is the serious part:

Knowing the early history of unionization and how democratic capitalistic govt. has frequently sided with enterprise against the worker in bloody exchanges.

I would think there would be serious friction in a one party tyranny towards unionization.

How would you characterize the ability of established non-union industries/shops to unionize in China…or is this just a dream.

Quote:

I read tons of really stupid things from the kooks in this group about China. I am not picking on you specifically, but the “union” comment was the last straw. Here’s the deal: I live in China and work at a surfboard factory part of the year and live and work at a California factory the rest of the year. The factory in China is OWNED by the workers union! You guys really are completely clueless, so I’ll clear up a few of the most common misunderstandings:

Skill Level- The average factory in California might work on 6-12 boards a day. The average Chinese factory does 40-60 per day. The Chinese factories have training manuals, expert technical ad visors and rigid standards for accuracy and quality. California factories have NOTHING like this. Chinese workers receive formal training and have very consistent work flow. I’ll put a Chinese laminator with one year of experience against a ten year vet from California ANY DAY!

Workers Pay- The average Chinese factory worker earns a middle class income for their area. The average factory in California lives below the poverty line. The average Chinese factory worker owns transportation (usually a scooter), a cell phone that takes pictures (I don’t have one of those) and lives in an apartment at least as large as the condo I am paying $400,000 for in California. They have TV’s, stereos and DVD players. They have health insurance. They are regular people. For decades California surfboard builders have been working for nearly no pay at all- just so a bunch of you guys can hold on to a fantasy.

Greed- The idea that surfboard builders who have product made in China are “greedy” is the most retarded idea ever! EVERYTHING is made in China, surfboards are just plastic, guys. Forget all your bullshit hippie ideas about magic carpets with souls. The surfboard buying public and the industry it’s self have been merciless to the board builders bottom-line. …so what, now a guy who’s been busting his ass for twenty years might finally be able to buy a house in the town where he went to high school?! Maybe now your shaper can afford to take his wife on a nice vacation to the place where half of his customers go every year?! You want sellouts? How about Quicksilver, Billabong, O’neill, DaKine and every other “surf company” that does not make boards and makes millions from selling clothes Macy’s! What’s so bad about board builders finally having an R&D budget? Do you want better boards or not?

Health and Safety- The Chinese factories have written Health and Safety Policies and Procedures. Workers are provided with respirators and fresh cartridges, gloves, aprons etc. Ventilation systems are state of the art. The factories employee full-time workers who do nothing but sweep and dust and all floors are mopped EVERY day. All workers attend Health and Safety classes. California factories are dirty eco-hazards, where guys work in dangerous conditions. I seriously doubt you could convince the average Chinese factory worker to step foot in the average California factory. The average California board builder has never even seen a factory as nice as the average Chinese factory. If a Chinese factory worker moved to San Diego any shop would want to hire them based on their skill level and work ethic and personallity, but the Chinses worker would have to accept a lifestyle down-grade to live in San Diego for what the factories there are able to pay vs. cost of living. That’s a fact, folks.

Labor- The average Chinese factory is married, middle-class and between the ages of 19-40. There is no child labor. Period. The average work day is 8:30am-5:00pm with an hour for lunch. The work week in six days (in California do I get even one day off?!). Workers Comp is paid for every Chinese worker. So is Health insurance.

As for the never-ending sniveling you backyard hacks do about “pop-out’s”, until you’ve seen one made you’ll never know how wrong you are. There are over 30 skilled hand steps involved and NOTHING is injected in a mold (save for the pre-shaped blank- just like Clark). One day surfers will build statues of Randy French for standing the stagnant surfboard world on it’s head and challenging antiquated ideas, materials and techniques. We’re trying to move toward the future of surfing and you guys are hanging on to some dream about smoking a joint, turning up the Eagles and working in your backyards. Surfing can’t move forward until boards move forward.

If, like most people on this board, you are a back yard “weekend” shaper and you don’t derive 100% of your income from making surfboards- SHUT UP with your opinions about the industry and what other people do with their own business. You don’t count.

As for all the China haters: you are really just a bunch of bigots! And for all the surfboard companies that talk shit and act like they are “home grown”- I make your fucking boards over there and I have pictures you don’t want posted, so tighten up, ya hypocrites!

I live there. I work there. Those are the facts.

I appreciate you coming on here and spelling out a few things. Many of which I agree with and have written. However, some of your comments are just about as clueless. You start calling people kuks and that their opinion does not matter is just as bad as some of what your griping about.

Most of the stuff I write echoes some of your sentiments and most of it is idealogical…but don’t come on here bragging about China and how wondeful the communist government is and how well they take care of their people with their well documented dirty enviromental standards and horrible human rights record.

Yes…I believe the standards of many of those factories are higher than your average shaping bay in the states and I think the quality is on par if not better in many cases…but news flash…the folks are not 100% free. I wonder how their class system works? I am not making blatant statements here…I would welcome any proof you have to prove otherwise. That their people do in fact have the same say in their lives as we here in America do and that the human rights violations and bloodthirsty government are just figments of our news media. I realize much of this stuff is complicated. I also realize much of what is said about the production over there comes from ignorance to some degree. Here is a question for you; do they honor trademarks like many countries? Then why the knockoffs?

As for Randy French and building monuments to him: What a joke. Push forward new technology. 30 year old wind surfing tech with lying ads stating the superiority of his stuff. It may have some better qualities than poly…in fact…I like some things about it for certain shapes…but superior it’s not. French is a hype master selling bullcrap to folks who are usually too old to care about custom stuff but still hung up on label, too non experienced to care and hung up on label or paid to ride it. Having said that…I don’t think there is one thing wrong with owning a surftech nor French being sucessful…but buying his line of crap…I am not. Anymore than I ever bought Al Merrick, Rusty’s or Lost’s line of crap. All that stuff was and is about making money. No problem…just admit it and move on…Why pretend to be the savior the the surf industry. Your post pretty much doing the same thing to some on this board as you accuse others of doing to French and the Chinese factories. Like I said…I am not opposed to either one as long as folks are honest about what it is they are doing. I have seen Dragonfly’s product. It’s way better than 90% of the hurting name brand junk that has been out there on shop racks for years. As for Global surf industry…screw that ridiculous ass and his little weasle sales rep in Florida. Neither one of them surf or care about it. The rep was a former skimboard peddler. It’s all 100% about the bottom line with those guys and they are not interested in you unless your the big guy or not in the same town as a big guy. They might as well be Quiksliver, Billibonk, or Volcon.

Who are you to tell someone their opinion does not count if they don’t make 100% of their income from surfboards? Thats typical big big industry B.S. to diminish criticism. You were doing fine when you were dealing with the facts. Why go down that road. Why worry about little old swaylocks? Does it hurt your feelings others may not agree with you or believe what your saying.

I for one have been asking for someone involved to come on here and do what you have to some degree started…bring some pictures and some facts. So far…I hear what your saying but I don’t see any pictures or any proof. Nor do I hear you dealing with China’s civil rights record and environmental record.

Here is the real bottom line…since thats what counts most to comodity folk. Why go to China if the working standards are middle class income? Why not move to China and take up residence and change places with the middle class Chinese? Outsourcing is done for one reason…because of low wages compared to our own and it allows American business owners to not pay workers compensation, union dues, retirement or be held to American standards ( which I also agree are pretty ridiculous at times). I agree the quality is equal if not better with certain things, but not always. I have seen my share of Chinese made stuff fall apart.

I am interested in hearing what you have to say, but how about leave off the name calling and telling folks their opinion does not count when so far thats all you have given.

BTW: I insure a few Chinese owned business. These folks are hard working as you get. I don’t think I have every heard anyone say anything different on this board. So…I don’t see bigotry. Got to toss in the race card don’t you. I do disagree with the first post. Chinese companies have as much right to advertise here as anyone. I have no issues at all with free enterprize. Unions are definitely not the answer. They have pretty much screwed up America’s work force with their own coruption. They had their place…but I think they also have their own issues.

Your post has a lot of promise. I would love to hear more about the actual way it operates over there so get get caught up in flaming me and not post more of that.

Also: China is not the problem nor Surftech or Global. Lacking creativity on your own and lack of your own skills is the problem. Overcoming imports is easy…just make something better and market it better.

I agree.

thats it! i’m moving to china to better my life and improve my craft.

All Right! I’m moving to China! See you there Commrades. Sorry, couldn’t resist. Are there any Chineese surfers in China? Mike

How are the waves in China? If they are anything like the working conditions, it must put Indo to shame.