University project help

Industry Talk
1

Sorry to start a new one on this topic but I couldn’t be bothered digging up my old thread as Im pretty busy. Any way I was just wondering if anyone on here has ideas on how they’d like to see boards improved. This can be in any way as all ideas will be welcomed, ie types of material, what flex people prefer (amount of torsional or longitudinal to transverse) weight etc. The reason for this I have been given permission to start project at uni for next year on surfboard production and processes and well this is what my lecturer said:

"Hi Philip

Next Monday suits me. We should try to generate an initial outline of the project on Monday. During the summer you will be able to do some reading and we can refine the project plan. With good preparation, when you start the experimental work you should be able to ‘hit the ground running’ so to speak.

Between now and Monday you might like to jot down some notes on what you see as the main issues to be addressed in the project. For example, are there structural and/or materials improvements that can be made to current boards?

Cheers"

So any ideas will be greatly apprectiated. My main interest is to see boards become cheaper and stronger. Yet still be easy to manufacture in a complete custom way that average joe can do as well as the big industries. Its all bout giving everyone a fair chance when it comes to boards and shaping. Take note I live in NZ where you don’t fix your own ding you pay some shop an over priced rate. And as I’ll have all the access to the testing equipment what better use of them to help all us out. I’ve shaped a couple of boards and done plenty of repairs but I know alot of you guys from oz and US will have a tonne of experience compared to me and also knowledge which I am yet to gain. So if yah can drop a reply with what you reckon should happen if you don’t mind.

I’ll keep you all posted on the progress next year to let you know how its going.

Thanks heaps

Phil

2

I’ll be brief -

Go to a full production board manufacturing factory and note the process from start to finish:

Blanks: PU; EPS -

Rocker: Learn Deck Rocker

CNC: Milling; Fixturing; Limitations

Software: Design; Modeling

Hydrodyamics: Study it!

Handshaping: Understand all the steps

Pre-Glass preparation

Laminating: Polyester, Epoxy, Plus there are many unexplored materials

Fin Placement: It’s a science all to itself

Finish: Sand; Gloss; Type of coating?

Study in detail each aspect of the process.

Know the materials - Pros/Cons

Current verses Future

Think outside the Box!

Know your Topic before you write a paper about it?

There are so many different process and materials to make light high performing surfboards that are durable.

If you haven’t notice there is a web site called www.google.com you can explore materials concepts on your own.

First you need to understand how boards are presently made before you can begin to look into new ways to make

them and what materials will work? There are no short cuts in life without consequences!

3

Thanks for that, I have been doing a lot of googling and also been looking at the process of how boards are made from injection moulding to CNC shaping and laminating. My interest is in how to make the stronger lighter boards that can be fully customisable. Pre cast boards a good if we all surfed the same waves and are the same body shape, but there’s so much variation in surfers body shape, style and level and also the waves they’re on.

I know one of the biggest problem is cost no one wants to pay $1600+NZD (~$900USD) for a carbon fibre pop out board. As you probably will never be able to analyse the way people surf, simulate it on a machine, find out whether you’re a back foot surfer or front foot, where your pressure is placed through turns, centre of gravity and how much power you supply to the board and produce a fully customised board that will be the best ride of your life due to the uncontrolled variance in waves the next best thing is still being able to produce a customised board on an estimatation of how you surf.

So I’ll be looking into new fibres, new resins how we can alter the materials and still be able to hand shape a board/CNC it in a cost effective way.

Since its only a one year project I’ll prob have to choose one aspect of it and see how I can develope it which is why I was wondering what people wanted to see happen.

Sorry for the long reply hope its easy to follow Im just in a rush to get out to the beach and get some waves before work.

Thanks

Phil

4

Sounds like your on the right track!

Let me know if you need anything?

5

Hi Piripi,

You’re probably well into your project now but I thought I’d put my 2 cents in anyway. I think that’s great that you’re doing this as part of a university project. I wish you the best of luck.

I’m with you, less expensive and stronger is better.

I wish I had some information on torsional flex, i.e how does it feel and how do I make a board with it. I’ve heard that the combo of flexible skin and parabolic stringers are the only way to get that effect but parabolics sound too labor intensive for my taste.

I’ve built a few epoxy/kevlar/carbon hybrids recently and can attest to their ding-resistance. They are much more water-proof than anything made of polyester/glass. They are also more dimple/dent resistant but not as much as I’d hoped. I had hope for a 100% dentproof board but it looks like I’ll have to go with Greg Loehr’s wood laminate sandwich to achieve that.

Here is my data:

With 2 lb EPS and a single layer of 5.7 oz carbon/kevlar hybrid cloth (from uscomposites.com) they are only about twice as dent resistant as a deck of 8 oz (2 layer x 4oz) polyester/glass on Fiberglass Hawaii’s Red PU foam (2 lb?). The overlap on the rails is bombproof, though.

I think I’ll have to put a sticker on each one that cautions the rider to be extra cautious when surfing near people with polyester boards because epoxy/carbon/kevlar won’t even show a scratch after destroying a polyester/glass board on impact. This tends to really irritate the owner of the polyester board.

This would be an ideal material if the price of carbon/kevlar comes down from the current $17.50 per yard (this is half of the $35 they actually charge for a linear yard of 50" wide cloth, which is wide enough for both top and bottom). I’ve spent about $100 (in Hawaii) on cloth for each board. You can get away with 30% less cloth if you keep your board under 5’11".

It doesn’t actually have to be vacuum bagged. Saran (plastic) wrap can be used to hold down the nose and tail cloth edges. So it can be easily used by the backyard builder. However, it makes a super light, super strong board when vacuum bagged.

An important detail is that when sanding has to be done it should always be wet sanded (to avoid melting resin), and you may have to take it all the way up to 600 grit to get rid of the fraying if you want to put a gloss coat directly on sanded kevlar. Our next experiment is to put a sacrificial layer of 2 oz glass on top of it to reduce the problem of kevlar sanding frays.

I’m having some trouble with fisheye’s in my epoxy gloss coat but I think I’ll fix that when we eliminate the hot coat and go straight from vacuum bag to gloss coat (using the sacrificial layer of glass).

I hope this info helps. I think these kinds of hybrid cloths are the future of surfboard building. Builders just have to solve the material problems with innovative solutions (like saran wrap).

6

Hey flyer

Thanks heaps for the info sounds like you’re having some fun with the materials. Good to hear how its been going for you too. I haven’t started the project yet as uni doesn’t start till march over here in NZ but I have been doing alot of research into what needs to be improved but I think now I have to wait on actually making the test pieces and seeing what the benefits of each are.

My lecture has been real helpful in telling me all bout the different materials from, flax fibres and other natural fibres all cheap as chips to the high end materials of PAN carbon fibre (the standard fibre) to pure carbon fibre about ten times the price of PANCF to some real crazy stuff. Also be looking into natural resins but Im not to sure how stable they will be, they’ll be good for making foam blanks though that we want to dissolve out of the shell as they’re easy to melt.

Um a little undecided about PANCF as its has quite a low impact resistance, (found out with my one as it didn’t take much to crack the rails) but with the Kevlar that your adding to your boards they would be bullet proof on the rails. All the best with your boards.