As Anthony suggested, I asked our vinylester resin questions via E-Mail of Doug at Fiberglass Supply. Here are the questions. Doug’s answers follow.>>> Hi Doug, > > A couple of us asked questions about the subject at Swaylocks Surfboard > Discussion bulletin board. When nobody answered, Anthony said I should > ask you. So here they are: > > 1) Will Suncure UVC 2000 harden vinylester resin? > > 2) Gene’s question: What are the price, properties, use, distributors, > etc. of vinylester resin. > > 3) The data sheet for your vinylester resin says the product contains no > wax, and that it doesn’t have to be sanded between glass layers if you > keep layering. But it doesn’t say whether wax is required for a sanding > coat, or whether unwaxed vinylester is sandable. Can you sand a > vinylester lam, or do you have to hot coat it? Doug’s Answer: Noodle, I do not have an experience with Suncure but suspect the chemistry will work with any clear Vinyl Ester Resin. We sell Solarez Vinyl Ester Resin which is reasonably clear but not as clear as surfboard resin and have had good results with it. See our Web Site for pricing. Vinyl Ester laminating resin are air inhibited the same as polyester resins. To achieve full cure and for sanding a surface agent or other method of sealing the surface is required. There are a full range of chemical resistance and physical properties available within the family of Vinyl Ester Resins, care needs to be exercised to select an appropriate resin for the task it is intended for. Doug My Comment: Vinylester resins cure harder than polyester resins. MEKP is the “old” hardener for polyester and vinylester resins. UV hardeners are faster, safer and easier than MEKP, and they produce higher quality lams. Suncure UV polyester resin costs only about 5% more than Sylmar polyester. Vinylester resins cost about 20% more than Sylmar polyester. Exotic Solarez UV resins, like Solarez vinylester, are WAY expensive. Suncure UVC 2000 is Suncure’s new inexpensive powdered UV hardener for polyester resin. If Suncure UVC 2000 will harden vinylester resin, and it looks like it will, it might be worth a try. The mixture would have the convenience of UV resin, and the strength of vinylester resin. And it wouldn’t cost your first-born-child, like some resins… -Noodle
Interestingly enough I was in talking to Doug about this last winter and he more or less said it should work. Well I mixed up a gallon of VE with the Sun Cure Catalyst and tested out a piece and it worked. I haven’t used it on a board yet however I plan to use it on a kiteboard later this week. The only problem is that VE is a nice ugly brown color and would have to be painted afterward or glossed with a pigmented gloss resin. I do have a 7’4" Big guys shortboard that I glassed with VE and a red pigment in the lam and I am really happy with how durable it is compared to regular polyester. In fact I accidently knocked it over the other day in the driveway and it only got one little spider crack. I’ve had other boards where that has split the rail open like a melon. Anyway VE is pretty neat and works well. Give it a try. Matthew Weaver>>> As Anthony suggested, I asked our vinylester resin questions via E-Mail of > Doug at Fiberglass Supply. Here are the questions. Doug’s answers follow.>>> Doug’s Answer:>>> Noodle,>>> I do not have an experience with Suncure but suspect the chemistry will > work with any clear Vinyl Ester Resin. We sell Solarez Vinyl Ester Resin > which is reasonably clear but not as clear as surfboard resin and have had > good results with it. See our Web Site for pricing. Vinyl Ester laminating > resin are air inhibited the same as polyester resins. To achieve full cure > and for sanding a surface agent or other method of sealing the surface is > required. There are a full range of chemical resistance and physical > properties available within the family of Vinyl Ester Resins, care needs > to be exercised to select an appropriate resin for the task it is intended > for. Doug>>> My Comment:>>> Vinylester resins cure harder than polyester resins. MEKP is the > “old” hardener for polyester and vinylester resins. UV hardeners > are faster, safer and easier than MEKP, and they produce higher quality > lams. Suncure UV polyester resin costs only about 5% more than Sylmar > polyester. Vinylester resins cost about 20% more than Sylmar polyester. > Exotic Solarez UV resins, like Solarez vinylester, are WAY expensive.>>> Suncure UVC 2000 is Suncure’s new inexpensive powdered UV hardener for > polyester resin. If Suncure UVC 2000 will harden vinylester resin, and it > looks like it will, it might be worth a try. The mixture would have the > convenience of UV resin, and the strength of vinylester resin. And it > wouldn’t cost your first-born-child, like some resins…>>> -Noodle
Noodle- I’ve finished my new glassing bay and am ready to make myself a UV Curing cabinet. Got some good info from Fiberglass Hawaii in Santa Cruz. I’m still not certain anything else but the Tanning bulbs will work. What are you guys using for light source other than daylight. The best price I can find on the tanning type lamps is $12.50 per bulb in 6 foot. Whew! I’m going to need 10 of them for my cabinet. Any thoughts? tom>>> As Anthony suggested, I asked our vinylester resin questions via E-Mail of > Doug at Fiberglass Supply. Here are the questions. Doug’s answers follow.>>> Doug’s Answer:>>> Noodle,>>> I do not have an experience with Suncure but suspect the chemistry will > work with any clear Vinyl Ester Resin. We sell Solarez Vinyl Ester Resin > which is reasonably clear but not as clear as surfboard resin and have had > good results with it. See our Web Site for pricing. Vinyl Ester laminating > resin are air inhibited the same as polyester resins. To achieve full cure > and for sanding a surface agent or other method of sealing the surface is > required. There are a full range of chemical resistance and physical > properties available within the family of Vinyl Ester Resins, care needs > to be exercised to select an appropriate resin for the task it is intended > for. Doug>>> My Comment:>>> Vinylester resins cure harder than polyester resins. MEKP is the > “old” hardener for polyester and vinylester resins. UV hardeners > are faster, safer and easier than MEKP, and they produce higher quality > lams. Suncure UV polyester resin costs only about 5% more than Sylmar > polyester. Vinylester resins cost about 20% more than Sylmar polyester. > Exotic Solarez UV resins, like Solarez vinylester, are WAY expensive.>>> Suncure UVC 2000 is Suncure’s new inexpensive powdered UV hardener for > polyester resin. If Suncure UVC 2000 will harden vinylester resin, and it > looks like it will, it might be worth a try. The mixture would have the > convenience of UV resin, and the strength of vinylester resin. And it > wouldn’t cost your first-born-child, like some resins…>>> -Noodle
tom, I don’t work in a board shop, so your general question probably deserves airing on a new thread. I’ve used UV resin on my boards, and I have experience designing street lighting systems. The experience included light spectral and intensity design. You posted earlier that Suncure recommend that you use only tanning lights. It’s bad juju to recommend against the supplier. However, I looked through a WW Grainger catalog. Those people carry a full line of lights, fixtures, and ballasts. I also boned up at GE’s website more. The generic equivalent of the recommended tanning light is non-color corrected neon high output (HO) bulbs and fixtures. Their lumen / watt output would be about the same as a tanning light. If you strike an arc through neon gas it emits an “emission line” of UV light at a single wave length. Due to the energy required to strike this arc, the neon light manufacturers quote the arc tube output spectral frequency in degrees Fahrenheit. Matter excited at 6500 degrees F emits the neon emission line. This frequency is UV, and should harden Suncure. Manufacturers coat arc tubes with “phosphors” to convert the UV light to longer wavelength visible light. The process wastes some of the UV light. Tanning tubes have phosphors, and very probably emit less useable UV than pure 6500 deg. non-corrected arc tubes. If you install the tanning lights, you can actually find directly equivalent non-corrected replacement bulbs. Now for “intensity”. To my understanding, at a particular resin depth, a certain percentage of photons will penetrate all the way to the bottom, whether they are emitted from one arc tube or two arc tubes. Greater emission concentration does not drive UV rays deeper into the resin. You can expose the same resin, in the same thickness, using more arc tubes of lower intensity than HO, as long as the total UV emissions are equal. If you want cheap light and easy maintenance, you can crowd the box with standard, off-the-shelf, non-corrected tubes. You can buy cheap eight footers at Home Depot for maybe $4 each. Just try to buy the same total wattage as you were planning using the tanning lights. Look for a 5000 to 6500 degree “color temperature” designation on the tube box. Higher numbers in this range are better. However, I make no guarantees. I’d recommend small scale testing of any of these ideas. Good luck, Noodle
Interestingly enough I was in talking to Doug about this last winter and > he more or less said it should work. Well I mixed up a gallon of VE with > the Sun Cure Catalyst and tested out a piece and it worked. I haven’t used > it on a board yet however I plan to use it on a kiteboard later this week. > The only problem is that VE is a nice ugly brown color and would have to > be painted afterward or glossed with a pigmented gloss resin. I do have a > 7’4" Big guys shortboard that I glassed with VE and a red pigment in > the lam and I am really happy with how durable it is compared to regular > polyester. In fact I accidently knocked it over the other day in the > driveway and it only got one little spider crack. I’ve had other boards > where that has split the rail open like a melon.>>> Anyway VE is pretty neat and works well. Give it a try.>>> Matthew Weaver Thanks, Matthew. Direct experience is what I was looking for. I’ve read the same strength testimonials about VE resin from other glassers. Sounds great! -Noodle
I’m using 6 bulbs in my set up. I flip the board and expose the underside to cure the laps. That way I can catch any areas that didn’t get stuck up right or partially expose the lap to trim it (if I’m doing a tape/trim job like volan cloth) and not have to worry about possibly messing up the glass job by handling a halfway cured board. This is my third year running the set up at about 60 boards a year and a couple of other projects (race car body plugs and molds and some boat stuff) and I have only had to replace one bulb that was broken by the guys working on the race car. It may be spendy to go with the tanning bed lights but you know they’ll work and you can be up and running within a day instead of chasing around looking for parts to save a few bucks. Although in the long run an alternative might be worth it… Good luck, Matthew Weaver>>> Noodle->>> I’ve finished my new glassing bay and am ready to make myself a UV Curing > cabinet. Got some good info from Fiberglass Hawaii in Santa Cruz. I’m > still not certain anything else but the Tanning bulbs will work. What are > you guys using for light source other than daylight. The best price I can > find on the tanning type lamps is $12.50 per bulb in 6 foot. Whew! I’m > going to need 10 of them for my cabinet. Any thoughts?>>> tom
Just some notes on what doesn’t work: I tested some 6500K. Sylvania Daylight bulbs, no bueno. Didn’t work. Tanning lamps it is. Are the Diamond Sun S the only brand/type that is being used successfully. Thanks. Tom.>>> Noodle->>> I’ve finished my new glassing bay and am ready to make myself a UV Curing > cabinet. Got some good info from Fiberglass Hawaii in Santa Cruz. I’m > still not certain anything else but the Tanning bulbs will work. What are > you guys using for light source other than daylight. The best price I can > find on the tanning type lamps is $12.50 per bulb in 6 foot. Whew! I’m > going to need 10 of them for my cabinet. Any thoughts?>>> tom
“Daylight” tubes refers to a phosphor which produces a yellowish spectral emission. I thought that 6500 deg F color temperature referred to UV… a contradiction in terms. No, daylight tubes wouldn’t harden UV resin very well. We’ve had massive flooding here, so Home Depot is jammed, but I’m heading there anyway just to read some boxes. …later>>> Just some notes on what doesn’t work:>>> I tested some 6500K. Sylvania Daylight bulbs, no bueno. Didn’t work. > Tanning lamps it is. Are the Diamond Sun S the only brand/type that is > being used successfully. Thanks.>>> Tom.
I am too, I was certain these would have worked. Here is some “crossover” data that I dug up using indoor horticulture as the search string. http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/8103/lighting.htm Other sources I’ve read are related to fish tanks, reptile lighting specs and some on bug zapper/attractor lights. Lots of UV issues brought up in these topics. I’m thinking that actual UVa and UVb levels and/or balance is the key to what works and not, in other words which UV band(s) or what wavelength range is required to trigger the catalyst. tom>>> “Daylight” tubes refers to a phosphor which produces a yellowish > spectral emission. I thought that 6500 deg F color temperature referred to > UV… a contradiction in terms.>>> No, daylight tubes wouldn’t harden UV resin very well.>>> We’ve had massive flooding here, so Home Depot is jammed, but I’m heading > there anyway just to read some boxes.>>> …later
Probably the key: “The application of ultraviolet (UV) coatings is a photopolymerization process formation of molecular chains by fusion. This category of coatings contains various accelerators or catalysts that are dormant until acted upon by ultraviolet light. The UV light or electron bombardment triggers a free-radical reaction among chemical groups that results in cross-linking (curing) of the paint resins. UV coatings consist of liquid oligomers (polyester resin), monomers (generally acrylates as dilution agents), photoinitiators, and various additives and pigments as required. Unpigmented clear coat applications typically cure with electromagnetic radiation wavelengths in the range of 315-400 nanometers (near UV-A light spectrum).”>>> “Daylight” tubes refers to a phosphor which produces a yellowish > spectral emission. I thought that 6500 deg F color temperature referred to > UV… a contradiction in terms.>>> No, daylight tubes wouldn’t harden UV resin very well.>>> We’ve had massive flooding here, so Home Depot is jammed, but I’m heading > there anyway just to read some boxes.>>> …later
(Note the comments on type of UV light required (wavelenghts), ideal placement of lamps, pigmentation failures and the possibility of using reflected UV for 3D objects. Good info from this site: http://www.sabreen.com/uv_curable_coatings.html) Manufacturing Process Advantages of UV Curable Coatings: The application of ultraviolet (UV) coatings is a photopolymerization process formation of molecular chains by fusion. This category of coatings contains various accelerators or catalysts that are dormant until acted upon by ultraviolet light. The UV light or electron bombardment triggers a free-radical reaction among chemical groups that results in cross-linking (curing) of the paint resins. UV coatings consist of liquid oligomers (polyester resin), monomers (generally acrylates as dilution agents), photoinitiators, and various additives and pigments as required. Unpigmented clear coat applications typically cure with electromagnetic radiation wavelengths in the range of 315-400 nanometers (near UV-A light spectrum). The chemical photoinitiators are sensitive to UV light, which changes the chemical bond structure of the photoinitiators, forming free-radical groups that trigger resin cross-linking. Curing happens in a 2-step sequence; first a photoinitiator absorbs UV rays and forms free radicals. These interact with resin molecules to form resin free radicals, then the small amount of heat from the infrared (IR) component in UV lamps accelerates the polymerization crosslinking reactions of the resin molecule free radicals. This IR heat is minimal due to the brief dwell time of parts in the UV cure zone, but it is enough to give a fully-cured coating. Some radicals often remain for a brief time (1-2 minutes) after UV exposure which give a minor degree of added postcuring to the film. Abrasion, mar, and scratch resistance of UV coatings are therefore excellent. UV coatings may or may not require solvent (or other fluidizing media) to reduce their viscosity and promote flow-out. If solvent is used, a flash-off time is allowed after application prior to UV cure. If the fluidizing media is also a cross-linker, it is called a reactive diluent . For reactive diluents, no flash-off time is required since they become part of the cured film. Rapid, extensive resin cross-linking can be initiated with UV light, so that often extremely low-molecular weight resins with very low viscosities are possible in the coating formulation. For this reason, the UV coating cures to a more stress-free and smoother film with less orange peel than possible with most heat-cured coatings. The UV resins may flow out so well by themselves that little solvent is required, allowing a low VOC coating, and in some cases even a zero VOC coating. The minimal solvent content in UV coatings results in only minor shrinkage from wet to dry film and considerable less induced film stresses compared to 2-component forced-curing and heat-curing coatings. Forced heat-curing coatings most often contain 40% or more solvent content. UV curing is fast usually in 10-60 seconds, which permits UV ovens to be confined and compact, and which enables faster production rates than cure methods that require substantial oven dwell times. The quick cure also minimizes substrate heating, which is a great advantage when curing films on heat-sensitive substrates such as printed circuit boards, wood, and many thermoplastics. Since the UV lamps (usually mercury vapor) become rather hot, it is necessary that they be turned off whenever the production line stops to avoid harming the product being coated. In the past, many UV lamps could not be restarted quickly once they had been turned off. Fortunately, modern technology irradiator systems utilize fast on-off UV lamps that cool off rapidly to enable starting and stopping the coating line quickly. Cure by UV is accomplished in shielded and enclosed chambers saturated with high intensity electrically generated UV light. For total curing to take place, the UV light must activate all of the photoinitiator molecules, which means that the light must see them. This is fine for unpigmented coatings, but only about 1-2 mil dry film thicknesses of pigmented coatings can be UV cured because the pigment molecules will block UV light from some of the photoinitiator. The energy of UV light decreases with the square of the distance between the light source and the surface receiving the light. So doubling the lamp to paint distance drops UV light intensity to 25%; tripling the distance cuts the light intensity to just over 10%. Therefore, the UV light source must be kept close to the painted part. For this reason, UV cure is ideally suited for use on flat surfaces which can be kept very close to the light source. However, highly polished parabolic reflectors enable a variety of 3-dimensional components to be UV-coated. These include metal wall emblems, golf balls, guitar bodies, and decorative plastic items.