Hi Haavard…please check your PM…thanks
Sorry guys, I should have chosen my words more carefully. Yes, as foam is manmade, it will definitely be more consistent. The term I should have used is resilient – balsa is much more resilient than foam could ever be, translating into consistency in flex over a longer period of time. When abused… as all surfboard are from the moment they hit the water… foam will weaken and lose its original flex characteristics much more rapidly than balsa. No point in wasting time to dial in the flex of an all foam board unless you’re using some extremely high density materials.
A pvc or san foam would be many times more resiliant over time than a polyurethane like that of a clark. Take a small piece of a clark blank and it will turn to dust if you crush it between your fingers. Not the same with pvc or san. The very light EPS is jut filler, but it seems it would add something to the whole picture, but basically just filler, density might add to overall flex stiffness to some degree. The trick it seems is to make the shell as best you can. Where all lams of the composite shell, top, bottom, sides, are together as if one. I just can’t help but think that a composite board like that which Bert make would keep it spring, snap, resiliance of flex and durabilty much longer than a p.u. board.
Hey Bert, those model airplane guys catch on quick. They must be reading and re-reading your posts here at Swaylocks 
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=325382 they are even using your airbrush ideas too!!! Hey…I didn’t tell them about it.
Sorry but I couldn’t help myself…even if I am razzing one of the most innovative surfboard makers out there.
Hello All,
I’m new to this forum and stumbled onto this thread when
Mr. Burger was just getting started. The lights when on in
my head and I went to work. Here’s the step-by-step result:
http://Impact3D.com/sandwich_proc.html
and you can take a look at the board in 3D after
you load a small plugin at:
http://impact3D.com/hein_5-1surf-textured1.html
Already planning on some changes based on what I have
learned here. Thank you.
-Hein
Nice work!
I was wondering what kind of hold down system you use while machining.
Nice looking board Hein! What software package are you using to model/machine the boards?
Kenz, check out this page on Hein’s website about his cnc router: http://impact3d.com/manufacturing.htm or http://www.multicam.com/eng/
Hein, what are the demensions and finished weight of that surfboard in the 3d? What materials and process were you using before you tried this? You’ve obviously got a fair amount invested in that machinery.
Thanks for the compliments and here are the answers to your questions…
The router has a 5x9 foot table with a 10hp vacuum hold down system. I bought and ‘mostly’ paid for the machine doing kiteboard cores. Now I do custom kite boards and I’m just getting into surfboards since that seems to be the rage for kitesurfing.
I use Pro/E to do the modeling and CNC programming. Pro/E has very powerful surfacing and analysis tools and I’ve been using it to model and manufacture all kinds of swoopy 3D products since the late 80’s. I used to be an independent consultant helping companies implement 3D CAD/CAM systems. Also was heavily involved in the rapid prototyping and other engineering time compression technologies. Now I piddle around in my shop making stuff and try to make a little cash to support my board riding habit.
The 5-1 KiteFlyer dimensions are: tail: 15.5" (39.4cm) mid: 18.5" (47.0cm) nose: 12" (30.5cm) thickness: 1.8" (4.6cm) The final weight is 5.75 lbs (2.6kg) with fins. It has a full tail and pretty sharp rails because it is meant for kites.
I’m working on a 5-8 surfboard CNC shaped from a Clark 6-1R blank. I want to design surfboards in Pro/E and machine them with my CNC machine. Much of the modeling, CNC programming and fixturing strategy has already been laid out on the 5-1 KiteFlyer. The 5-8 will be a single to double concave with a soft parabolic rail profile. I’m making this CNC machined proof-of-concept board as a favor for Matt at Fiberglass supply who has been a constant source of information and supplies. We’re doing a .125 in (3.2mm) H100 deck inlay as he suggested earlier in this thread. He’s coming over tomorrow to ‘review and approve’ the 3D model. Brian Hinde and the rest of the crew at Fiberglass supply have also been a great source of information and fun to talk with. Thanks guys! Here’s an image of the 3D model. I’ve adjusted the lighting to highlight the single to double concave.
I’m also going to try the Kite Flyer 5-1 in solid H60 with a wood deck cap. Should come out as light or lighter than the sandwich one based on the volume calculated from the CAD model: 1130 cu. in. (0.0186 cu. m) Thanks to Bob Burda at Diab for setting me up with the foam.
-Hein
With the rocker in, how do you hold down the blank when machining the deck, since you need a flat surface for the vacuum hold down system? From the pictures, it looks like the blank is in a foam rocker table and just taped on the nose and tail. Also, how much vacuum are you pulling when bagging?
hein that was insane …super stoked to have some technological input …
also to glenn , i checked out those model aircraft sites …
im humbled and take back what i said about the rib and frame method …
but you know what struck me …
here are these guys in other fields , they just except technology leaps and run with them and things are improved … they have no problem excepting new techniques and applying them , seems a logical way to proceed …
so my question is why the hell is the surfboard industry in the dark ages … and seems determined to fight tooth and nail to keep the status quo???
the way i see it , those who were most determined for things to remain as is … will be the most disadvantaged as things change …
what hein showed is a small taste of things to come …
i bet guys like greg are probably starting to sigh with relief as i know i am , just seeing growing numbers of crew going in a logical direction …
a handful of top 44 guys getting results , will probably push this into the mainstream in no time …
also stoked to see other experts gathering on this thread and freely giving some direction …
also happy to see cmphawaii join the swaylocks clan …
looking forward to an interesting time in surfboard evolution …
regards
BERT
hey turbojets and losos …
cedar balsa combo , and d cell balsa combo , with fabric to hide the d cell …
both valid , but both have a unique performance feel …
balsa is my preference or all wood is my preference …
a few team guys and customers prefer a d cell combo , depends on how much of a whippy zingy springy feeling you want or dont want …
regards
BERT
Ia Orana Bert,
You are sooo!!! right. It was amazing to me when I came on to this thread that so few board builders are using epoxy. I remember back in 1986 I was building a 30’ sailboat using West system epoxy and I though, man! this epoxy would be great for surfboard building. So I had two boards shaped in poly foam by a pretty well know shaper in southern California. I glassed these two boards with epoxy. They were lighter and more durable than poly boards. When I showed these boards to this shaper the only response I got was a shoulder shrug and “yeah nice”. My special thanks to you Bert, Sabs, Hein, and all the rest, what an inspiration you all are to me. Thanks all for thinking outside of the box.
Poe Rava
Hein - I just got my hands on a copy of SolidWorks a few months ago and I tried to use it to model a board. I couldn’t even come close to the quality of model your screenshots show. If you don’t mind giving away a few hints… what’s your technique for designing the board? My method was to design a number of slices, draw the rocker profile, align the slices in their respective positions along the rocker line, and then loft through them all. Didn’t work all that well for me (hard to get smooth flowing curves through all the slices – probably the reason the APS software went with the deck profile curve rather than letting you edit the heights of the slices directly), but maybe I’m just not using enough slices.
Quote:
so my question is why the hell is the surfboard industry in the dark ages ... and seems determined to fight tooth and nail to keep the status quo???
I think it is a cultural mind set difference. Model airplanes are little airplanes so I think it is natural for those hobbyist to look to the aerospace industry for ways to improve. Also (I’m guessing) it is a larger community so there are more guys experimenting on the cutting edge, having success and influencing the rest over time.
Were as in surfing (and no judgement or insult ment) the industry cares more about making a product to sell than a board to excell. Also there is more dude-brah factor taking the engineering out of the process and resulting in the following of a receipe. Thus little to no inovation. On top of that at casual glance boards all look a like. It takes close inspection to see the difference. Joe-blow sees a board and thinks about the graphics on the board more than the design and construction of the board. Just a guess, but I speculate that the model plane builder sees another plane and thinks about the design, wing angles, tail shape…
I would also say that in the model aircraft the plane is the goal were as for most surfers it is the wave ride. Many don’t understand or care about there board design (or make the conection on how that impacts the ride).
In many ways the swaylockers are the surfboard builders exceptions. As a group we care more about the board than the average surfer and understand that a design change will impact the ride in the water.
That is my take on why you see evolution occuring here but not industry wide (yet). Like Bert says, I believe the industry will get passed by someday and then be chasing to catch up.
Oh and one more thing that contributes to the status quo in surfing…
as a culture/community we have idol like views of the names of the masters (regardless of who is actually shaping the boards) and this reduces the insentive of those shaping houses from making change. Once more local shapers get recognition instead of the old-big-names (which are deserving to some extent) then the market will support change. Unfortunately while big surf shops are just happy stocking the same big-name boards and only the informed can find an alternative, then the status-quo will continue.
b.t.w. please don’t let this thread turn into philosophics and move off its origional path of vacuum/sandwich construction. It is a great thread. Just felte a need to reply Bert’s comment, was not trying to start a whole discussion or hi-jack the thread.
just my $.02
Hein,
I saw one of your pics with the 5-1 board in a glossy white finish.
What kind of paint are you using?
Thanks
Just wondering do you still use a dcell stringer with the wood rails or do you just go wood/eps?
my main 9 to 5 boards are eps, wood ,epoxy , glass and a few other bits and pieces …
maybe 1 in 4 would be built with a different combination , depending on the customers requirements and tastes …
as there are infinite possibilities with what you can press together in a vacumn , the different combos comes down to whatever you can imagine …
this ones a core cell , eps , epoxy , glass , balsa , cedar , urethane combo, with no artificial colourings or preservatives …
dont worry about what i do coz , i do so much different stuff depending on what the application is and whos getting the board …
you can basically do whatever you think will work , based on the information you have or what you might theorise should work …
just have fun exploring …
regards
BERT
just got on this and all i can say is “oh- my -god”…boy am i gonna have some fun…
Bert
I hope that you don’t get fed up answering questions, but you started it!!!
I have been looking through the archives and you have hinted at many things, some of which you obviously want kept to yourself, but I am hoping that you can help with some of these:
1 Do you seal the eps before bagging the sandwich on? I know some guys use epoxy with microballoons, some dry wall filler, I am presuming it needs to be filled to stop it sucking the resin out of the glass, but you don’t allude to this on this thread.
2 Do you recommend priming the balsa with resin before adding the pre wet cloth? Doesn’t the balsa suck a lot of resin out?
3 I agree with your views in general on vac consumables, all those added layers only bunch up in the bag and crease up the glass, (and cost money), I am going to do some trials, but as you have said that you do not use a conventional breather over the laminate, maybe you use a perforated release film, or just pull the bag down tight over the laminate? with breather fabric/ bubble wrap on other side to that being laminated.
I have been following this (and other threads) avidly, since you started it, initially I bought a sheet of 3mm corecell as it is fairly cheap in the UK (£15 per sq m), compared to airex ( £37 but conforms to compound curves well and is really white and fine celled), but the more I have been thinking on it the more sense balsa makes. I have just picked up enough 3mm sheets for 2 boards and am waiting for my 16kgm3 eps to turn up, can’t wait to get going!!
Thanks Bert for opening up the flood gates!!
if i answer any of those questions directly and give the reason and a concise explanation of why i may or may not use any of those techniques , then i would have to give a more scientific answer , as soon as i do that, some things will become obvious …
all i can say is everything changes in a vacumn , once you observe certain things happening under vacumn , then your mind starts ticking …
most people think in terms of conventional techniques , and try to apply the same rules thinking they will have problems in certain areas …
but in a vacumn everything changes …
even chemical reactions change in a vacumn …
sorry i didnt answer directly …
but with other productions using similar techniques , all i would have to do is answer a few of the simplest questions correctly and give the reasons why , then the lights would go on with other labels in the same field …
if i dont keep some cards in my hand i would lose any potential bargaining power if i ever had a chance to sell or intergrate my techniques into a larger production …
even a company like cobra would gladly like to know some of the little secrets …
when they ring some of my suppliers and ask dumb questions , it just confirms that there is some things they havnt figured out yet …
you still have to consider the financial cost of knowledge …
i know one company that spent at least 6 million , rumoured to be up to 12 in R&D costs on a project and got to where i was at 8 or 9 years ago , so what value does that put on where im at now???
ive showed stuff that is 80s tech , with a few newer concepts thrown in , but really to get to the techniques i use now , that is where you have to start …
so while i dont have a problem discussing certain principals and the performance aspects of different constructions , i cant answer every detail regarding construction techniques …
and then even if i did land a deal , i still wouldnt be able to discuss certain construction techniques out of respect for anyone i may deal with in the future otherwise it would cost them …
i hope it doesnt seem like i opened the door then slam it behind you so everyone is lost in the dark …
its more like exposing many more posibilities ,its up to others to explore as well , honestly , there is still so many more experiments i want to do that i feel would have potential , if others start trying whatever they think could work just by starting with the stuff ive highlighted , chances are they could stumble across something even better than what im up to …
i dont want to be to dogmatic and say this is exactly how you have to do certain things , otherwise i could be stiffling and having a negative effect on the creative minds of others …
this is truly the hidden world with so many possibilities …
regards
BERT