Vacumn forming & Sandwich construction

well , it looks like plan b …

a while back there was a conversation happening about new materials , new techniques, the pressure on the existing industry , i remember commending greg loehr for being willing to pound the pavement and bring new materials and concepts to the existing surfboard industry …

myself , having had my fair share of pounding the pavement and pushing something different , was quite happy to sit back and watch things change , for better or worse , it wouldnt really affect me coz ive got more work than i could do in a lifetime …

so ive decided i can do my bit for an industry that is feeling pressure from many sides , and thanks to swaylocks i can do it from the comfort of my own small production set up and not have to pound the pavement …

what ive got in mind for this thread is showing you guys the principles of vacumn forming and building custom sandwich boards …

i know some crew will think its crazy to just give so much away …

but ive been doing this for so long now that ive pretty much solidified my position in this field , i feel i dont have to hide things anymore , even if plenty of board builders went in this direction , it wont change anything for me , im not giving everything away , but i will show stuff that i was doing years back and some construction concepts thatll have some of you foaming at the mouth …the reality is , its not as easy as people think , to invent something then make big money from it , ive got to the stage where all i wanna do is go surfing and enjoy life , every possible way there is to make a dollar from intellectual property always involves , hard work , more hard work and sacrifices im just not willing to make anymore , lifes just to easy these days , hanging with the family , going surfing,skating,or sandboarding with the kids , and making a few boards each week , so if im just gonna sit on this knowledge and do nothing with it , then i might as well pitch in and help out with what i know …and if any of you guys run with it and incorporate it into a production , just remember me , where you got it , and maybe give me a mention …

for me thats a way nicer scenario then having to deal with corporate bullies who just wanna cut you out the picture , or run with your ideas claiming they own it , coz they have the money to say what they want …at the end of all this i might get some better offers or opportunities , you never know ???

i know the asian production houses can benefit from some of this stuff , but the ones that will benefit most will be the custom board builders , coz as it stands at the moment surftech have surged into an open market with no competition …companies like salomon and surftech have set a benchmark pricing structure , but none of them can deliver true customability , so already you should be able to see a margin there , plus a competitive edge …

the following comment is a quote from a customer email recently

Quote:

As far as boards go – I’m not too fussed on price – you have something that no one else does… and I’m bummed if I have to surf anything else…


this guy is overseas , but the amount of crew who i see in the water and who come to the factory , who are so bummed out coz they dont want to wait a year for a board , but end up being forced to ride second rate equipment coz they have no other choice …

i know there are the knockers out there , but they only knock coz they cant compete , so they figure, better write off the emerging technology to save there own arses …

another motivation for doing this thread is to show cobra that they dont have all the answers …

at the end of this thread itll be common knowledge how to make a pvc custom sandwich board ,

but cobra will still have no idea about how i do my woodies and how i get the results i do …

thatll basically end there assumption that there leading the way in surfboard construction technology …

ive got everything i need in stock now to build this board , i said i was going to sell it , but i might keep it for myself , i wanna try something different with the outer glass job ,…

theres so many variations with the vacumn forming technique , mr j did a thread a while back , bluejuice does sandwich work as well , so if you guys wanna pitch in with some photos that show variations , feel free , especially the rails …if anyone has questions along the way ,jump in and ask …

im going to build this board around my current work schedule so it wont happen over night …

ill show the cheapest easiest way of doing each stage , plus ill show a few pics if you wanna step it up and go for a long term production set up , the type of equipment and tools youll need to build more …

ok i will start this baby tommorow …

the truman show starts soon …

one of the ingredients …

regards

BERT

I know what I’m logging onto first thing tomorrow…thanks, Bert! Can’t wait…

Thanks Bert, looking forward to all the info to come…a bagging we will go…

Wow… just what I was waiting for, I will be watching and learning.

love the drama Bert…a real page turner and its only page 1…stoked!

Goodonya Bert. Restoring faith in human nature.

Let the learning curve be on the rise again for all of us.

Bert, looking forward to this thread, if its like your fin making thread its going to be epic. I’m interested in learning the vacumm bagging technique to apply to my hollow boards and try and get the weight down.

Good on ya

gray

good for you, Bert! Now that, my friends, is soul. Stick it to those cobra bastards!

I’ll echo everybody else, especially after your fins article , I am definitely looking forward to this one…

best

doc…

Aloha, Kauai!!

Have a great surf ! Clyde Rodgers

my signature echoes my thoughts, Bert…

Go Bert…let the cat out of the (vacumn) bag!

I’ve been waiting for this since you mentioned your intention of doing it. Can’t wait. Thank you for sharing. I already plan my next board to be sandwich construction.

well i cant believe it …

i ripped into this after work today , and still managed 20 photos in the first session , ill just have to pace the shots and put a few in on the days im not working on the board …ok …

first things first …

the bag … i was going to buy some clear plastic from the hardware store , but i had an old bag laying around , i cut it down and retaped it , the general idea , is make a big plastic bag big enough for your board and your support …

once youve made a bag , youll need to connect a hose to it …

i went fossicking around and found this , a peice of radiator hose and the back up pad from a sander …

the general idea is a hose bonding solidly to a flat plate so you can mount the connection to the bag …

ok next step , using the multi purpose adhesion stripping (2" masking tape ) have to try and make it seem complicated …join the hose and plate , cut a small hole near the open end of the bag , say 30 cms away from the opening …

more on the next page …



tape hose support base to bag …

your pump …

realistically , the pump will be the biggest investment , i got this little baby 11 or 12 years ago and it still cost me $1,000.00 back then , this one is called an ov4 , its a carbon vaned pump , it clears 4 cubic meters an hour , you could vacumn 2 boards at once with this as long as your bags were in mint condition , it can pull up to - 75 kpa or 11 psi …i remember at the time , that paying a grand for this baby felt like a big step , coz prior to this i was using vacumn cleaners , which were between 30 and 50 dollars from the secondhand shop … they would burn out and i would get another one …

one day a vacumn cleaner burnt out while i was doing a mal , the job was beyond salvation , i was already using my wifes cleaner coz mine had burnt out days earlier ,i couldnt get a replacement at short notice, after 2 blowouts in quick succession and losing a whole board , the costs started to justify them selves …i had one previous vacumn cleaner last me 3 years , they do work, but i had built a frame to exagerate the vacumn and was using it mainly for doing timber decks on polyester boards back then , when i made the switch to production epoxy sandwich , a vacumn cleaner just didnt handle being on for such long periods …

like others have said on other threads , look around , things like milking pumps , refridgerator vac pumps , other stuff does work thats not so expensive , also the cost of new pumps has come down in the last decade as well , like digital watches , once 300 dollars , now 2 dollars …

heres the production baby …in its own outbuilding outside , i have a 40 m3 per hour pump , connected via a pipe through the wall to an evacuation chamber , then 5 seperate outlets , tapped and gauged …

back when i was running some serious production , i had a t piece off each outlet , combined with a process where we could bag 2 boards back to back in one bag , i could vacumn up to 16 boards at one time , 1 valve was left solo for other purposes , which probably wont get discussed for a few years , till some of you guys start experimenting …

you can see the top gauge is my tank pressure , that will determine the most pressure you can run for any job …ive got 3 jobs running now while i took this photo , one at - 20 kpa another at - 40 kpa and the last equalling tank pressure at - 80 kpa ,

the pump can pull - 100 kpa , but when your running 3 jobs and 2 are being purposely bled for resin transfer , it starts to drain the system a bit …

its an oil vaned pump , the main pump is immersed in oil so air cant escape back through the system …

ive connected the spare hose to a permanent bag on top of the tank , mainly to show the bag …

its solid plastic , the stuff they use for annexes and outdoor restaurants , its been plastic welded to seal it , a bag can be up to $200.00 …

in the early days i used bagging tube , taped off the ends , i usually got about 10 vac jobs out of one bag , it was cheap only about 10 cents a meter …

but there was time involved in making a new bag every 5 boards , retaping and changing connections , then there was the drama of chasing holes in the bags when they got worn before you got frustrated and changed the bag …

so if your doing more , it ends being way more economical to have permanent bags , one of my first permanent bags is still running , its probably done 900 maybe 1000 vac jobs and still going strong …ok

i will leave it there for today …

the good stuff comes tommorow …

are you sure this is a surfboard factory???

regards

BERT



Quote:
tape hose support base to bag ...

are you sure this is a surfboard factory???

yes, that is my idea of how the best boards are made

this is my setup:

no 4 on the table. But until I complete this one thats all i have time for right now, so I’ll leave you to finish this thread and watch before adding any more detail of what i do

well i dono how much im gonna add tonight ???

so surfed out at the moment , i can hardly raise my hands to type …

ok preparation time …below is some of the basic ingredients for the first stage , the board im making is a 6-8 …so ive got a 6-9 blank . i dont want to use the 6-9 rocker so im pressing it onto a 7-3 rocker block …i have my contour mat …

im cutting the rails out of 12mm h 60 divinycell ,i place my 7-3 rocker template onto the divinycell and trace bottom curve , cut with a razor , then clean up with a sanding block , then using that tool that holds a pencil and allows you to follow a curve at a set distance (whats it called??), draw another line 30 + mm in ,following your bottom curve , cut it off and repeat the process …i havent built boards like this for a while , but when i did i would use one sheet of divinycell for each rocker style , that helped minimise waste …

ok , so the rails are cut , next get your blank , mark the outline and cut it just like a conventional board , using a planer attachment make sure your outline is 90 degrees to your bottom …

below is a picture of something i call a contour mat , with out saying to much , the introduction of this concept , allowed me to discover principles which have made it possible to leap to another level …this particular mat was still collecting dust , im glad i still had a few laying around , the one pictured here is my single blending into a double inside a single concave mat …

in the past , people would come in and ask if i did normal boards to??? i would ask what they wanted as far as shape … if i already had a bottom contour mat matching what they wanted , i would tell them to see the guy up the road , im not interested in making boards that self destruct , but if they requested a shape that i didnt have a contour mat for , i would yield and build it for them , so i could rip an imprint off the bottom of there board …

continued …



next is a pic of the rocker bed , a piece of flexible sheeting , but not to flexible , my contour mat taped to the middle of the sheeting , and a piece of 3mm divinycell with dry glass laying on it…

now ive mixed up 150 grams of epoxy , ive rolled up and folded my glass into a neat package , then placed it in my tub and wet it through …

the divinicell is sitting on the rocker bed/flexible sheet/contour mat , ive got the glass and strained it out so its quite dry then i rolled it out and flatten it down with a sweegee

one more page …



once your glass is smoothed out onto the d cell , place your outlined blank in the centre of your bed making sure it lines up with centre lines , then using excess resin lightly brush the rails …

next , grab your precut h 60 rail sections and place them down , pinch them together at the nose and tape around the front of the nose to hold them ,(i had previously sanded the tips of the rail pieces so when they meet at the nose they line up and come together ) do the same for the tail …dont worry about how the rails sit , the bag takes care of that … then some tape over the top at each end so the board doesnt move while you put it in the bag

now load the whole lot into your bag , now the next step is vital …

get some shade cloth , bubble plastic or tontine , something that allows air to move through it , if you dont have this , you connection will suck to the job and block itself off , you gauge will read mach pressure and your bag will be loose , the mesh spreads the vacumn and stops the opening of your hose from sealing it self off …the larger the mesh the better it works , i have permanent rocker beds with the whole flat side covered in mesh , my permanent bags also have mesh stuck on the inside of the hose plate , that stops any loose items , pieces of foam going down your hose and blocking the system up …

often people ask me questions like , can i shape a board from eps then get you to vacumn on a skin for me ???

thats almost impossible i say …

what makes vacumn forming and bagging complicated is when you think in terms of conventional construction , that then acts as a constraint to what you can do with the bag …

you can bag before you shape , in fact as you will soon see if you havent already worked it out you can use your bag to shape …

this process is more of a shaping tool then a glassing tool , its a bit of both …

if the shaper doesnt do this , then he has to work very closly with the person doing the bagging , i had 1 guy do this for me for 8 years , we worked closely as a team between us we could put out 20 boards a week and still go surfing , i would often work back at night and load his bay with outlines and deck shapes , that would buy me time for a surf , the guy was an elf , he would appear at some insane hour in the morning , have em bagged and baked and loaded back in my bay before i even got to work the next day , im looking at a whole bay full of work to do , as hes laughing while tieing his boards on the roof to go surfing …

our little , try to swamp the other guy with work game , was good for production , while it lasted …

ok thats me for another day …

im hitting the hay … should be waves again tommorow …

ahhh , that surfed out feeling …

regards

BERT