I like the way a board with volume reacts instantly when it’s pushed…particularly the tail…the trend for .thinner boards have made " flex re-coil" somewhat of a neccessity to compensate for lack of drive , when you lay into a turn and bury the rail…but , does that have any real advatage over adequate floatation ?..any thoughts on this ?
not that i can see man. but i think that tapering out the volume at the tail can really improve response and allow for extending your center of balance further out to get a more laid style bottom turn. i see why they step the rails on fat boards so a lighter guy can bury the rail and extend center of balance further. but i find again very little advantage in these refinements for being in the zone. ie mopping all the sets. always in position . not tiring for at least 3 to 4 hours of constant paddle and wave turnaround. say i think about a 40 wave session would be slaying it even with a bit of a crew . i think about 10 waves per hour how does that sound in overhead surf with crew of ten to twenty on one peak with the odd section. volume wins every time . plenty of spectators riding mayhem outlines.
the biggest draw back with volume imo is longer radius turns in small surf. which is a moot point when its big. so you ill never surf like kelly on a 3 inch thick funboard but at least your dominating the local when its overhead. and in reality none those other c#nts riding mayhem outlines are gunna make it to that level either.
longboard when its small (waste to head and a half)
fatty funboard when its biger (head and half to 3oh)
i think that because of riding alpine snowboard my style has changed and i want to compress and extend my center of balance to get the g force feeling but surfboard dont really alow it. i dont think the current trends in surfing styles are very good from a spectators perspective. the average non surfing joe would rather watch say joel tudor or massive tow surfing then a pro comp. they are more for the tastes of surfers that want to attain that style.
its interesting to watch the best at the style but those trying to attain it are painful to watch at the best of times. id rather watch some old f#cker riding the nose to be honest
surfing flat off the board pointing forward is planing using gravity
fins are like a self tacking jib its alway providing power on a turn its is presenting a surface area to the water molecules but also has a point of dininishing returns wrt drag and turning radius. the power lifts you to the a higher position on the wave to use gravity again
fins are like a jib
rail is like the mainsail. the more of the rail and bottom area you can sink in or present to the forward/upward moving watermolecules . the faster the reponse or burst of speed which can be utilised for sharper radius turns in steeper parts of the wave and returning to a higher point on the wave to use gravity for planning
a thicker rail and fatter board is harder to sink in the wave so is less responsive and harder to sheet in the main
suring is like a combo of planning with gravity and sailing on watermolecules …
volume is best for planning
less volume is best for sailing the molecules
the recoil you seem to be experiencing is the thiner rail that is easy to present to the molecules. gives a burst of power that pops you to the top of the wave. it requires compression and extension of the your center of balance and legs and abdomen
a fat board with fat rails uses flotation for easier and faster planing, you can power up your fat board with larger jib. ( fin) with a bit of flex in the tips. stepping the rail and thining out the tail alows for easier presentation of surface area to water molecules as there is less volume in these areas making it easier to sink with compression and extension and also importantly angulation.however the lower volume rail is removing volume from board…fat board works better for HOTDOGGING when they have a widepoint further forward as it allows for more rail in the water with a forward weight and center of balance . this is how you get recoil from a fat rail . ride up front like longboard trim to present more rail to water molecule. pump the board with compresion and extension to get speed recoil. point to bottom turn and lean it over and switch weight as desired whilst initiating top turn… the board must be short enough to not have to move feet to switch weight to the tail to enable a radical turn. fat boards need the rider to be able to switch weight from front to back without moving feet for rentrys and hacks in the pocket
if you surf uncrowded waves with no current or duckdiving and a predictable peak and take off or tow surf then obviously you could possibly have more fun on a thinner board.
…Not sure that thicker equates to “fat” Paul…my thought was more along the lines that bouyancy through to the tail , when layed over and burried at speed gives more instant drive that a delayed reaction from flex , in a thin-tailed board which lacks bouyancy…Ive noticed how thin some tails are becoming , and I don’t see the advantage over something with more float…flex also sheds a lot of energy , until it re-coils…
(1) True.
(2) But never with 100% return.
You lose time, speed, and energy. But then you knew that. ‘’ Goodonya’’ for voiceing it.
i dont surf off the tail i surf off the front foot so i couldn t tell you . but flex doesnt play a part. it would be undesirable for the most part… flex in your legs and muscles are far more relelvant
Balance of forces:
Flex increases rocker which decreases turning radius meaning tighter turns which means greater accelaration throughout turn (which you obviously feel).
However, at the same time increased rocker means board is pushing water which means it is slower than when planing straight and without increased rocker.
When you come out of turn flex is released which means rocker returns to normal which means means board can return to normal “speed” without increased rocker (i.e., planing on surface of water).
IMO this is the source of the acceleration that (supposedly) comes from the release of flex and not some kind of recoil or release of stored energy.
Ultimate example, Greenough style spoons (kneeboards), the ultimate flex machine with almost no flotation whatseover (the board barely floats itself, let alone the rider), it is all about flex and planing.
In the right conditions (long unwinding point wave with some power) those boards can literally “fly” over the face of the wave and were in fact, much of the inspiration for the modern shortboard revolution.
morey boogie flex and slow. along comes the mach7 and bodyboarding is revolutionised. stiff is fast. no brainer
I prefer a thinner, flexier board when the waves are smaller in size, but very thick and hollow/dumpy. It seems to make taking off under the lip and setting a rail in the middle of the wave faster. Those super thin tails are not so much about carrying speed through the turn than they are about flexing under load, changing rocker, and tightening turning radius… which scrubs off a lot of speed.
I suppose , what I’m questioning is the validity of “flexing under load”…when it flexes , energy is lost , and the required reaction is delayed…more bouyancy , and less flex (or tighter flex) gives more reaction , the harder you push it , with minimal loss of drive and speed…all boards have always inherantly had flex to some degree…pro level surfers ALL do a slight, quick fade before laying into bottom turns , is this to compensate for energy and speed loss because of the flex ?
Ahhhhhh! Thanks kayu and thrailkill for putting that into words. Now I know one of the reasons why I really liked Geoff McCoys Nuggets.
I’ve gotten rid of my McCoys, but just recently bought a local epoxy sandwich copy with some volume/foil changes that may work.
Dave
Dave , I didn’t start this thread to promote Geoffs boards…he seems to do that pretty good already…it’s a thought Ive had for years , and I’m sure there’s plenty of guy’s out there who are still believers in what a good distribution of bouyancy can do for performance , as opposed to the increasing trend in thin tailed boards and boards that are generally thin all over…
depends what kind of waves you are surfing and the style you surf
really steep waves with tight curves or very vertical surfing a lot of flex is benefitial since the board will bend to fit the wave, allowing you to be in best part of the wave. you would lose energy in the flex but make up for it twofold by being in a more powerful part of the wave. a stiffer board may lot let you get there.
flatter waves or more down the line surfing a stiffer board will carry the momentum better and keep you in pace with the wave. a flexible board may bog here and you get left behind.
of course there is always a compromise between the two to suit in between conditions and different styles of riding
volume in the tail will definately contribute towards the board’s ‘personality’
That’s basically the question…IMO , and experience , a board with less flex and more bouyancy can be placed quicker and easier , in any part of the wave , better than a really thin flexy board , without losing drive and slowing down through turns…it seems to me that many boards these days , are being shaped around a certain fin cluster , rather than shape the board and get fins and placement correct for that board’s shape…???
i like a board with less flex and more buoyancy (and more width) for weaker waves and a thinner/more flexible board for waves with more punch regardless of fin setup
I like a thin tail, narrow too. But Due to my heavy glass schedule - and solid cedar stringer @ 3/8" thick - I don’t think I’m getting much flex… 
I’ve gone to more curve/kick through the front fins - quads - but I’ve known for a long time I like/want/need to be able to sink the tail under my toes/front side, and too much foam just does not alllow me to do so.
I think the “acceleration” people feel in a tight turn, is their bodys reaction to wanting to go straight in space - momentum - and the board under their feet stopping it from happening. Especially tri fins… was pointed out once, “Tri-fins are the best decelerating boards…”
I prefer less flex or no flex than too much flex.
between 160-180lb my flexible soft surflght mini gun felt like smooth like a cadillac over water
it sucked up the bumps, blended with the tightest arcs(drops) and pumped down the line like a heart.
compared to my perimeter stringered firewire it was less finicky although the firewire had its own form of pump and snap
but after 185lb it becomes liike a wet noodle especially the tail
like surfing those infamous green Doyles in the 90’s or a maybe a costo wavestorm
all flex no control and no speed
might as well have an anchor at times when you can least afford to bog down
built one of Bert’s 1 3/4" thick x 23" wide magic carpets which always felt on the verge of collapsing but had an interesting ride lke a car without shocks
those hull s deck profiles(that Taylor fancies) were trying to do the same thing
as was the pendoflex tail and the all carbon tails of bushrat boards, greenough’s velospoons, going all the way back to Jeff Ho’s visions in the 70’s, thick where you need the floatation thin where you need the flex/snap. Greenough’s paddle fin comes to mind
mats seem to be the perfect embodiment of this strategy
ie constant surface manipulation to keep the waterfow as laminar as possible
stretch had an interesting commentary of controlling the rebound with corecork on the deck while creating a spring on the bottom which other materials like bamboo.
I think the term used is predictable and controlled flex versus the trampoline effect which occurs to fast to control.
but in the end floatation is a more important component tha flex
I haven’t ridden thinner flexier boards for a while. I prefer the way a stiffer board will translate my input into reaction, especially on short boards. I started back in the days of single fins, and the beginning of the shortboard revolution. From the 70’s on we rode a lot of teardrop shapes with heavy glassing. The style then was to drop straight down and slam a hard bottom turn that sends you back up and out to the hook of the curl. I still like to ride my singles that way, but I also like the way boards with side fins can return a lot more energy when you put them on edge.
I agree with the statement that the harder you push stiff boards the more it reacts, but I also think it reacts faster and with more consistancy. Being that the board is not relying on a rebounding effect from flexing, it would make sense that the feel would stay constant over time. I think flex is something that changes as the board gets used more and more, or harder and harder.
I think Tom Curren started a trend back in the late 80’s of making 2 turns off the bottom to have more control. I saw him doing that at Sunset and I thought it was because he was having trouble controlling his board on the bottom turns. Then I saw Chuy Reyna doing the same. It’s like they have to turn, but aren’t ready to let it loose or don’t have their sights quite set on where they plan to go. They make a pre-turn then hit the harder turn. Maybe it is related to the way modern boards flex, and they need to get their weighting just right. Maybe it’s because the boards are so weak that a really hard turn will snap their boards.
(that Taylor fancies) Ha! Thanks for noticing Bernie… Ha!
Harry - The multi - pump/turn off the bottom thing has always seemed lame to me… I don’t care about any thing else I see out of the rider, it always looks like their board - three fins as far as I’ve seen - won’t turn the way they’ed like it to. Always looks like they,re not quite sure/ready to turn all the way, or they need to try to turn up just enough to keep their speed up, then they have to do it again, and again, if the wave is fast. Then again, having not seen video of myself surfing in 30 years, I have no idea how I look… Ha!
I experimented with flex: fins, tails, and I didn’t feel it won the coast/benifit analysis. Had it’s place in a limited application, but not for an all around board, but of course, that’s just me…