I noticed that Fiberglass Supply’s warp bias glass is currently less expensive than the standard glass.
Is there any downside to using the warp bias material?
I see it nominally runs 0.3 oz/yd heavier, which would result in negligible extra weight. Will more yarn will soak up more resin? Does the extra yarn make wrapping the nose and tail more difficult?
I’m currently building a relatively thin longboard, so I’m thinking a little extra strength wouldn’t hurt anything.
Thanks!
I am not an expert on cloth weave or the manufacturing process. Having said that; Here is what the best glass shop on Maui told me. They use 4oz. Warp in combination with 6oz. E for deck lay-ups. Warp weave runs a differant direction than E. The combination is said to make a stronger deck than a standard 4/6 oz.. E Fewer dents etc . That seemed to be the case on my own personal boards. I know E is plain weave. I believe Warp is diagonal. I'm sure there's someone here who can set us straight on this, but I believe that is the basic idea and one reason for using Warp.
As I understand it, warp bias has the same number of total yarns in the weave as E, but some of the fill (cross) is removed and is added to the warp direction (lengthwise). so I don’t think there’d be much if any weight difference laminating. I have had what seems like good results lately using 2 warp for deck and 1 s-glass for bottoms (all 4oz) on the shortboards I build. It “feels” just a little different when you’re dressing the blank but I noticed no difference while laminating or tucking laps.
I believe warp means lengthwise strands.
My understanding is consistent with Bud’s. More fiber strands in the lenghtwise direction. This should give the board more longitudinal strength. Are we talking about S vs E glass?
It wouldn’t have any greater impact strength if the number of threads per square inch remains the same. It would be stiffer if more strands run the length of the board. It would also be stiffer because with less cross threading, less corregation, straighter fiber. More corregation of the threads of e cloth would increase impact strength, because the laminate would be thicker. Sort of creating a micro truss.
Lastly, warp would laminate a touch lighter, because if more threads run the same direction, with less cross threading to bump up the weave, it would hold less resin.
The real test would be to make up a sample. Take a fishing weight, hold it at a set height over the samples and release. Which one fractures easier. Try that with epoxy, and you’ll have another reason use epoxy rather than resin.
Warp glass means that there is more fiber in the length of the roll than in the width, the weft. Because of form factor of a surfboard Length>>width higher stress is in direction of the length of board so surfboards should be laminate with warp glass rather than balanced fiber, for dent resistance it’s an other thing. For exemple 1510 from Hexcel is a warp glass, 65% of fiber are in the lengh, 35% in the width it’s plain wave twist in the warp flat in the weft that lower crimp angle and give a better fatigue resistance for stress in direction of length. When warp glass represent more than 80% you can say it’s UD glass.
Sorry for my frenglish.
Wow, thanks guys. I am again humbled by the warp and weft of knowledge here. I think I’ll give the warp bias a shot. I guess some sort of side-by-side lab procedure would settle the question, I’m not keen on dropping a couple of my boards on the rocks.
Fiberglass Hawaii had some on sale about a month back. I think the lowered price is a function of over supply.
Howzit McDing, I used warp glass for years and both 4oz and 6 oz and it always cost the same as E glass. It does not run diagonal but like was said earlier there are more strands running the longitudenal then perpendicular to the stringer so the board should not break as easily as E glass. Now since there is more strands running the log way that means there is more glass on the board and it would take more resin to lam it and not lessThey don't twist it or any thing else except just add more longitudenal strands I have to admit I prefer S-glass to any other kindof glass but the price is just way to much to pay unless the customer wants to pay the extra. I can remember in the early 90's it ran about $2.60 a yard when you bought cut lengths and by the late 90's it was almost $8.00 a yard for cut lengths. I think by the roll it was still over $5.00 a yard. Since I haven't bought any glass in 3 years I have no idea how much it costs these days. Aloha,Kokua
First there is no such thing as warp bias, but I will let someone else answer that. Warp is a weaving term and refers to the direction the fibers comes off the roll, and fill is the direction of the fibers going across. Used to be uniform, like 50-50, but boards break a certain way, so the infamous Hank Johns, of “Graphite Master’s”, had HEXCEL put more fibers in the warp direction (around 70%), and less in the fill (around 30%). By creating a glass with this weave, there are less twists and up and down and the glass is more uniform, and much stronger in a way that helps to keep boards from breaking, he mused, so he put out some money to have it produced, and used to get a royalty for it; now its pretty much standard. Oh E-glass is a term that is better defined by its dielectric, or insular capacities than its strength; whereas S-glass, is a structural glass, but more expensive, and surfer’s seen to be more concerned with costs than strength. Kind of similar to lemat’s answer, but I was there to see it all happen, and did the initial testing.
Howzit ghettoguy, I lovedusing warp glass and S-glass and don't think I used any E-glass for the last 12+ years of making boards. You seem to have quite a bit of kowledge about it and was wondering just wehn they started producing warp glass since it must have been sometime in the 80's when I was running my restaurant and just doing my own and my youngest sons boards with E glass or S glass. I must say I miss making boards but I have to remind myself about the toxic side of the chemials and the possibility that they may have been part of the cause of my cancer, that seems to stop the itch to glass go away real fast. The other day I came acoss a bunch of pictures of some of my boards I had airbrushed ,so I showed them to my nephw and he blew his mind since he had never seen any of my work before and the airbrush/painting of boards is something I would like to do more of and I don't see moch toxicity in that as long as I wear a mask. Aloha,Kokua
Warp glass is no balanced E glass, i don’t know it was made for surfboards industry (the 1510 from Hexcell i suppose) but use of fiber(glass) with more fiber in one direction, often call UD, lay in good direction (against stress) is the principle of HP composits industry. I worked on some aeronautic parts (metalic an composits) before becoming mechanical teacher, they was build by stacking of UD carbon prepeg, the payer use a specific mechanical composit softwear to define the good direction of each layers.
Sorry for my frenglish.
Hey Kokua, I hope your feeling OK. The experimentation for what became “Warp Glass”. took place in the early '90’s. Differing yarns were employed, and differing thread counts were considered and used. For example, some yarns are flat, and some are twisted, so we used the flat yarns in the fill direction and the twisted yarns in the warp direction to lessen the size of the interstice or the gap between yarns. Unfortunately, while stronger, it would fray along the cuts too much upon wet-outs. So it wasn’t a one shot thing to get there. We used different size threads, and finishes and played around for a couple of years before settling on what now is common in the industry. When “Graphite Master’s”, royalties ended with HEXCELL. Hank Johns went over and pitched the “Aerialite” thing, and we didn’t have to do as much testing.
I don’t feel like writing the whole story, but it didn’t happen over night, and we built quite a few test boards and panels in the process of which I personally was the burro, and gave Hank Johns my inputs on why a certain weave, yarn, or finish worked better than others. Innovation is more than a good idea. What’s cool is the stuff actually helps to keep boards from breaking. Blah, blah blah…
Not sure how well the cloth will hold the resin if there are less fill (weft) threads.
Hey DBK all those kind of things were considered when we played around with the initial test runs. For example: when we used flat yarns to kind of cover the gaps on the weft, because some yarns were taken out, but the yarns would fall out pretty easily when wetting out the rails, which wasn’t what I told Hank was good for production guys. Tried different finishes also. At the time I kept reiterating it needed to feel like the JPS which was the best feeling glass at the time, but probably not the strongest, but sure laid down well and looked purdy. told him about this thread, and maybe he’ll add a bit at some point.
I would suggest that in terms of historical significance “Warp Glass” was the first fiberglass specifically designed and engineered for surfboards instead of borrowed from some other industry, and going on twenty years later is still legitimate. Say what you may about Hank Johns and “Graphite Masters” they had the balls to go out and get it done. Too bad they still don’t get a royalty. Still those guys are on the cutting edge in terms of what can be effectively employed in advanced surfboard construction. Most people will never know, because they’re as Walter Lippman would say, and Edward Bernays would agree part of the “collective herd”; often its the people on point getting shot at from all sides.
For all who want a little bit more interesting perspective consider the works of Bernay’s especially on the herd.
Hey DBK all those kind of things were considered when we played around with the initial test runs. For example: when we used flat yarns to kind of cover the gaps on the weft, because some yarns were taken out, but the yarns would fall out pretty easily when wetting out the rails, which wasn’t what I told Hank was good for production guys. Tried different finishes also. At the time I kept reiterating it needed to feel like the JPS which was the best feeling glass at the time, but probably not the strongest, but sure laid down well and looked purdy. told him about this thread, and maybe he’ll add a bit at some point.
I would suggest that in terms of historical significance “Warp Glass” was the first fiberglass specifically designed and engineered for surfboards instead of borrowed from some other industry, and going on twenty years later is still legitimate. Say what you may about Hank Johns and “Graphite Masters” they had the balls to go out and get it done. Too bad they still don’t get a royalty. Still those guys are on the cutting edge in terms of what can be effectively employed in advanced surfboard construction. Most people will never know, because they’re as Walter Lippman would say, and Edward Bernays would agree part of the “collective herd”; often its the people on point getting shot at from all sides.
For all who want a little bit more interesting perspective consider the works of Bernay’s especially on the herd.
Not to say there’s not a collective herd mentality… there most certainly is… but I would argue most people who know their warp from their yarn buy the best materials they can afford. Last I checked, at Fiberglasssupply, warp was cheaper than standard E. So maybe people just think standard E is “better?”
Kokua,
Using polyester resins concerns me also.
But having worried about the toxicity of glassing, I read the hazard/toxicity information about epoxy resin. The main issue for epoxy resin is potential contact sensitivity/allergic responses rather than cancer.
Also, while acetone is toxic, the human body can produce it biologically (the fruity smell of a diabetic’s breath).
Nonetheless, it is always a good idea to exercise caution when handling and working with adhesives, solvents and laminating compounds.
I hope your health is improving.
Thanks for the first hand history and info GR… As a backyarder I do notice I have to be a bit more careful handling 4oz warp, especially when laying on the deck and smoothing it out - being all thumbs and callouses, as it’s easier to accidently snag/pread a gap between strands. Sometimes I use a bench brush to smooth out cloth, works well but seems like I feel static electricity building up, probably just my imagination.
Recently for HP shortboards I prefer to use the warp for 2 layers on the deck and a single S-glass bottom:
Howzit g rat, Thanks for the info since I was still running my restaurant till 91 and was a little distant from the business for a few years. You guys did a bit of R & D before making the best you could and I for you loved using warp glass in both 4 oz and 6 oz. Aloha,Kokua
