Waterproof speedometer

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Has any consideration been given to the idea that when riding a shorter board, or body board for that matter, one tends to keep the same stance or position, but when riding longer boards, you can walk the length of the board? It would seem to me that a high speed could be recorded at a particular moment if you were walking forward on the board while already traveling at a high rate of speed on the wave. Just a thought.

As Roy pointed out (perhaps in one of the earlier related threads), as the surfer runs forward along the board, the board moves backward. This is due to the conservation of momentum (Newton’s First Law), and hence the board moves rearward more rapidly than the surfer moves forward since the surfer typically weighs considerably more than the board. The end result is that it depends on whether you want the speed of the surfer, the speed of the board, or the speed of the center-of-mass of the combination of the two. To first order (i.e. neglecting small changes in the drag due to the small reduction in speed of the board over the water), the center-of-mass speed will remain the same; the speed of the surfer will be increased (depending on the relative weights of the rider and board–but on the order of 10 percent of the running speed if the surfer weight 10x the board weight and abruptly decreasing substantially if he runs too long), while the board will slow down (by something like 90 percent of the running speed).

mtb

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Nice try but no cigar, we are well aware of the difference between KPH and MPH and use them interchangeably

That session in the video was much slower than our fastest very sorry

You will notice that our top speed was originally quoted in KPH ( 61 KPH )

There seems to be a certain desperation in these attempts to lop the tallest speed poppy. . . but to no avail, we know EXACTLY what we are doing, and are very careful to get it right !

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the speed of the surfer will be increased . … . . . . on the order of 10 percent of the running speed if the surfer weight 10x the board weight and abruptly decreasing substantially if he runs too long

mtb

Lol running off the nose !

:slight_smile:

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I presume that you mean wind-powered sea-going vehicle. The offshore power boat record speed is over 200 mph:

Correct, I don’t count mechanized vehicles.

As for windsurfers dealing with rough seas, I think you would be surprised at what is possible on a sailboard. but yeah, those powerboats are impressive machines.

Passenger hydro’s have frequently been powered by turbine engines.

http://www.boeing.com/history/boeing/hydro.html

Some speed records (500metre course)

http://www.sailspeedrecords.com/500.html

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…… So Terry, what do you think of the size of the craft and how it affects the potential top speed? Is there any precedence that would show that a larger or smaller craft is likely to achieve a higher top speed ? ( Going back to post #1) ……

Hmmmm…I’m a little confused since Post #1 in this thread is a video of the 31 mph ride at the Wedge?

But to answer what I assume your question may be regarding the “size of a craft and how it affects potential top speed”, my first reaction would be that I would have to say it depends on the conditions.

All other factors being equal (i.e. same surfer and board weight, same aspect ratio and wetted planform shape, same wave size, same waveface slope along the path line of the craft, etc.) and neglecting air drag, the optimum size board will be when the induced drag (proportional to 1/(V^2) is equal to the other sources of drag (which are proportional to V^2). Any excess wetted area decreases the induced drag, but that is more than offset by an increase in the other forms of drag. Conversely, any lesser area increases the induced drag more than the is offset by the reduction in the other forms of drag.

What the optimum wetted area will be depends on the speed one is going–faster speed, smaller wetted area; slower speed, greater wetted area.

The surfer, of course, can alter the wetted area (as long as some portion of the bottom is initially not wetted) by shifting his weight forward (increasing the wetted area) or backward (decreasing the wetted area)–i.e. by ‘trimming’ the board for max speed). In this sense one might expect that the longer board would have an advantage at slower speeds since the rider can step forward to increase the wetted area) and could step backward to reduce the wetted area to the same as a shorter board when traveling at higher speeds.

But that assumes that ‘all else is equal’–which it generally is not. First of all the greater the unwetted area, the more friction drag that can be expected from the high speed jet of spray shooting forward of the points of contact of the water that first contacts the bottom of the board. It also increases the air drag as the presence of the unwet forward area of the board blocks the flow of air near the sea surface (although the frontal area of the rider is probably a greater factor). In addition, the tails of longer boards tends to have more rocker than the tails of short boards as well as ‘rounder’ rails over a greater length of the board. This reduces the efficiency of the board in generating the lift required to support the rider and board–and these trends generally increases toward the rear of the board.

Then there is also the question of ‘porpoising’ that can occur as the center-of-mass is moved toward the rear of the hull. I’m not very familiar the details of this process, but I suspect that aspect ratio is probably one factor, and the moment-of-inertia about the board/rider systsem about the pitch axis is another. The latter can be substantially larger for a longboard compared with a shortboard.

There are also geometric factors, such as the radii of curvature of the wave face compared with the dimensions of the board (affecting the planing efficiency of the bottom); the height of chop compared with the length of the board, etc… And in the real world, ergonomic factors (such as the ability of the rider to efficiently “pump” the board and how much energy he can put into the pumping process).

In, short, I’d be leery about making generalizations and would recommend considering each case as unique unless many factors are virtually identical in both design and wave environment to a known board, rider, and wave conditions (i.e. the ‘weasel out clause’).

mtb

Tom/Roy Just asking and no i did not notice in fact i went back to the start of the post and reread it and the first mention you give that i saw was in mph.

I eagerly await the video that shows you going almost 2x as fast as the one you just posted. which was going as fast as any other video i have ever seen of you :slight_smile:

so far all you have shown me is you go the same speed as everyone else maybe a lil slower

Soul

Really Soul, for someone who regularly uses gps to measure speed you show very little confidence in the instruments, instead you appear to prefer the impossible task task of measuring speed by looking at video clips.

Thus you seem to have missed the point of using GPS. . . . and you can’t just embrace GPS when it suits you and then deny that it works when someone goes faster than you. . . . that is somewhat inconsistent to say the least. . . . . you might have to just face the fact that your boogie board is not the fastest board on the planet !

By the way our 61 kph (and 56kph sessions) session were mentioned a couple of weeks ago on another thread.

You cannot negate the measured speed of my boards by (a) Questioning my honesty and the honesty of my wife and sons, (b) Eyeballing video clips , or (c)By suggesting that I don’t know the difference between kph and mph. . . . what are you going to say next, that I am reading the instrument upside down?

We are reporting correctly measured surfing speeds, get used to it

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Roy i have confidence in what i see with my own eyes

as long as it matches what im experienceing gps spikes of 35 on a small mushy wave or 500 mph are not to be believed if it did not feel like 35 or 500 mph :slight_smile:

I actually havent done alot of comparisons between videos and reported gps speeds something i plan on doing more of in the future.what i have compared to videos alot is what i felt to how it looked. the gps is a feedback tool for me and after a while i got where i could gauge my speed pretty well without it. just like you can use a radar gun and within 1/2 hour call the speed of the cars within a mile or 2 without looking at the gun.

i personally feel a mat is faster then a boogie in size waves i can ride. i do not have the skills to ride my mat in the type of waves shown in the boogie video.

just thought the boogies were getting a poor representation on Terrys speed list. so i took my gps down to wedge on a day that was breaking fairly well.gave it to an buddie who is an ex pro he confirmed it was a fast feeling wave but since he was barreled the number could always be debated.

i do not see why you guys are so down on the boogies and think of them as so slow everyone more or less actually seems to be going the same speed to me when i watch riders.the only thing i have seen that looked like it was in a whole different speed class is a paipo board old steamer lane footage and a mat on smaller waves like greenoughs state of the s footage

these examples just look abnormally fast . your examples i have seen look abnormaly normal :slight_smile:

boogies have no fins dragging in the water and the ability to lay a nice thin rail up in the face. extended out to the fin tip it gives a pretty nice long rail to drive off of watch the mike stewert tow in wave at jaws and tell me how slow he is going same boogie works from 1 foot to 100 feet :slight_smile:

Your wife and kids are not the ones who are posting :slight_smile:

did not see the other thread please link to it.

your past post lead me to be skeptical are you saying now the videos which you claimed were so fast in the past

look slow and cant be relied on its the gps which is all that matters now becasue if you dont post a track we have to take your word on it

endless cycle repeat ad nausem

soul

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The positional accuracy of GPS units is degraded so that they can’t be used for military purposes. I’m only guessing but I don’t think they degrade the velocity measurements.

All of the values in data are calculated from a few actual measurements. Actual limitations on accuracy are going to depend on the base error in those “original” measurements and the algorithms used to extrapolate the other numbers. After more research I concluded that it’s not easy to find a single source that explains all of that concisely :-> I did find that my assumption that the receiver calculates speed by using two derived positions and the timebase was incorrect, and so my estimates of probable accuracy were pessimistic.

So I went looking for a paper that would do some real world comparisons of reported GPS speeds to known speeds. I found one that compared GPS reported speeds of several levels to speed simultaneously measured by a wheel-mounted magnet (think bicycle speedo) under controlled conditions that looked pretty definitive (link below). After reading that paper, I have changed my mind - measuring surfboard ground speed by GPS is probably sufficiently accurate if enough measurements are taken (throwing out the high and low speed rides for a session would appear to be a good idea) and some basic sanity checks used. Still doesn’t answer the question of what we really should be measuring: ground speed; water speed; both.

“Testing the Accuracy of Autonomous GPS in Ground Speed Measurement”, K. A. Al Gaadi, 2005 http://www.ansijournals.com/jas/2005/1518-1522.pdf

-Samiam

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if you dont post a track we have to take your word on it

soul

It appears that you are not yet tired of questioning my honesty !

I must point out that you have not posted a track, in spite of this I accept your reported speeds. . . it’s the only gentlemanly thing to do, and I am sure that my confidence in your honesty is justified.

Apparently there exists a lower class of person who is prone to cheating at golf. . . . I do not belong to that class

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(throwing out the high and low speed rides for a session would appear to be a good idea) -Samiam

Sorry but that is a bad idea, the whole point of the exercise is to measure the fastest rides in a session and you can’t do that by throwing them out.

The windsurfing speed sites do not throw out the fastest runs, they simply check for erroneous ‘spikes’ which are easily detected.

Regards,

Roy

WITHDRAWN FOR FURTHER THOUGHT :->

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My insistence on the usefulness of water speed is based on a single (but imo very important) practical consideration. It is the only kind of speed that can be directly impacted by variations in board design…

-Samiam

Not true Samiam, if a change in board design results in a faster speed this can be detected by both GPS and impeller based recorders

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the pdf actually states they had errors up to 80 % when they did rapid accelration or decelration

now i am not sure but i think this only applies to the tracks .

I actually record tracks and submit them by email to Terry for all speeds i report. i have done this for my last 2 sessions and have the tracks availible for anyone who wanted to analize them . im sure you will be doing the same for all your reports to the speed matrix and will have no problem duplcating your previous phenom speeds :slight_smile:

as i already stated I am eagerly awaiting videos of these rides as im sure they will be spectacular

Soul

Yeah we will have no problem duplicating those speeds. . . when we get some swell.

I have a track (assuming that it downloads correctly) for the lsat session and will be track recording in the future

No guarantee that any video of the event will be more spectacular than what you have already seen. … . fast does not necessarily imply spectacular

Catch you next time, dawn has struck and I must work !

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My insistence on the usefulness of water speed is based on a single (but imo very important) practical consideration. It is the only kind of speed that can be directly impacted by variations in board design…

-Samiam

Not true Samiam, if a change in board design results in a faster speed this can be detected by both GPS and impeller based recorders

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Directly impacted meaning that the increase in land speed (GPS) is a consequence of the improvement in hydrodynamics allowing the increase in water speed…

-Samiam

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(throwing out the high and low speed rides for a session would appear to be a good idea) -Samiam

Sorry but that is a bad idea, the whole point of the exercise is to measure the fastest rides in a session and you can’t do that by throwing them out.

The windsurfing speed sites do not throw out the fastest runs, they simply check for erroneous ‘spikes’ which are easily detected.

Regards,

Roy

Disagree slightly with your formulation, the point of the exercise is to measure the fastest rides accurately and consistently so that the results can inform our understanding of surfboard design. If you glance at the paper I linked to (at least check out scatter diagrams) you will see two things: most of the data points are in small, consistent clusters; most of the statistical inaccuracy stems from a few “flyers”, points that are far above or below the point cluster at a given speed. A common (practical) correction for this kind of anomaly is to apply some formula that will eliminate most of those “flyers” as data; a typical strategy is to disregard the high and low readings from a set of measurements taken together. The alternative (ideal) is to deduce all of the actual causes contributing to that type of error, and devise and prove corrections for those. I don’t know if anyone here is up to that challenge, I know I am not :-> With enough measurements done accurately under similar wave conditions, there should be a negligible effect on the highest accepted speed.

-Samiam

‘flyers’???.

Mathematically speaking its called identifying and eliminating outliers.

Several or more ways of doing this based upon the distribution.

I threw a bunch of my notes out on this …this month.

Figuring that I would never need this again.

So far I’m right.

Plenty of good stuff on the internet though.

You assume, that by labelling the fastest recorded rides in a session as ‘statistical outliers’, that they are therefore necessarily spurious or unusually inaccurate data, which is not the case.

Garmin Gecko GPS units have been found to be accurate to within 0.5 mph in measured speed runs, and as has been mentioned previously, MTB and Bill Barnfield, who have tested GPS units alongside impeller based water speed recorders, state that the speed readings from both kind of unit agree closely.

If you look at the speeds posted on windsurfing speed ladders it can be seen that the top speeds are closely clustered, which is another indication that the gps units have a high level of accuracy. . . . . the fact that my speeds are much higher than those posted by others using the same measuring methods and meauring equipment is because my boards are faster, and no amount of technical quibbling is going to alter that.

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