Waterproof speedometer

With a laser gun like the police uses to measure speeders you can measure a car that is standing still to well above 50 kph. How? You move the laser with your hand when you measure(The laser must be mounted on a tripod or the reading is not valid).

Since your GPS is mounted on your head, what heapen if you suddenly bend forward? You get a quick spike in speed. The board doesn’t slow down because you compensate with your body weight to stay in balance(your feet does not move).

I suggest the GPS must be mounted on the board to measure board speed accuratly.

regards,

Håvard

That’s a good point Håvard,

I see what you’re thinking but wouldn’t it be better mounted on a pivot point, like directly above the fin…

If you mounted it on the nose of the board you still get the swing factor on turns, same as mounting it on a helmet…

Quote:

With a laser gun like the police uses to measure speeders you can measure a car that is standing still to well above 50 kph. How? You move the laser with your hand when you measure(The laser must be mounted on a tripod or the reading is not valid).

Since your GPS is mounted on your head, what heapen if you suddenly bend forward? You get a quick spike in speed. The board doesn’t slow down because you compensate with your body weight to stay in balance(your feet does not move).

I suggest the GPS must be mounted on the board to measure board speed accuratly.

regards,

Håvard

As I hope to show below, comparing the speed measurements from a laser “gun” (laser speedometer) with GPS speed measurements is, as the saying goes, “like comparing apples with oranges”.

Here’s some comments about the performance characteristics of the laser speedometer from tests conducted by the Home Office[UK] - Dept. of Research and Science and summarized in the report:

“The potential ‘slip error’ of the LTI 20.20 laser speedometer (Fri Jan 27 00:00:00 GMT 2006)”.

According to the abstract, these tests show that:

“If the device is used in accordance with the ACPO (Association of Chief Police Officers) guidance, it will produce accurate readings within the limits set in the Speedmeter Handbook. Our tests prove that to be the case. While the device does detect when it is not held sufficiently steady, it can not detect when it is moved deliberately in order to generate an inaccurate reading.”

A little farther along in the abstract it warns:

“The guidance advises against carrying out measurements for enforcement purposes at the extremity of the range due to the difficulty of holding it sufficiently steady to obtain a reading.”

A basic question to be asked is: “What is the source of these false speed readings when the unit is held in an unsteady hand?”

Although I have not (yet) found a detailed description of the laser speedomenter, I have learned that it not only measures speed, but also distance:

"An LTI 20-20 laser speedometer is a small handheld device, which aims a laser beam at the target vehicle. When the beam returns to the device’s receiving set, the device translates the data for the speed of the vehicle and for the distance at which the vehicle was measured. The police use the LTI 20-20 laser speedometer, which is carried by hand, to enforce the traffic laws on urban and interurban roads. The device does not photograph the vehicle; the policeman stops the offending driver on the spot.

Tests have shown that the laser speedometer is extremely reliable. The results of measurements using this device constitute admissible evidence in court; test findings have successfully stood up in the Supreme Court a number of times."

http://police.gov.il/…eeding_accidents.asp

From this information, I would suspect that speeds are computed from two (or more) measurements of distance versus the elapsed time between them.

Given this information, what is a mechanism by which the instrument could produce a non-zero speed reading from a stationary car–but only if held in a shakey hand (i.e not on a tripod)?

My hypothesis is that the erroneous readings are related to the fact that the shaking hand causes the “aimed” laser beam to move from one location on the vehicle to another (or to an object other than the vehicle) as the alignment of the laser beam wanders in accord with the shakey movements. As this occurs, the beam would be reflected back from objects at varying distances from the central target of the beam. Different distances at different times computes out to a speed. Note that in accord with the UK study summary, this problem would be exacerbated as the distance increases between the instrument and the car. Also big differences in distance (e.g. front of vehicle vs a tree next to the vehicle) lead to high speeds.

This is a totally different situation from GPS speed measurements–independent of whether they are made using the Doppler shift of the frequencies sent from the satellites to the receiver, or from time/distance measurements. In the GPS case, the satellites positions, trajectories, and velocities–and how those quantities are changing with time–are known to a high precision. Furthermore, these signals are detected at the location of the receiver antenna (dimensions on the order of a few inches or less). Hence there is no effect equivalent to, or analogous to, the “shaking hand” and it’s effect on the separation between the source and the object.

That’s not to say that there can’t be some additional speed associated with (in the present case) the movement of the board rider’s head. But there are some constraints on how large that error may be. Given the dirth of information available from the manufacturers of the GPS units on their internal algorithims and computations, it is difficult to say how “instantaneous” the “max speed” and the “real time speeds” reported by the unit really are. However, by experimentation, I know that the “real time speeds” are apparently averaged over a time longer than 1 second since if one moves the unit at a constant speed, and then abruptly stops (or vice-versa goes from zero speed to some constant speed) the change from one steady speed to the other takes more than 1 second (the default updating time interval). Hence the error from short-term movements will be related to the (vector-averaged) velocity over some time like a second, or longer. If we assume the motion of the head changes it’s position (relative to the center-of-mass of the body) by 1 foot during one of these motions, we can get an idea of the associated possible error.

The “extra” speed reported by the GPS that is associated with this movement will be:

v = 1 ft /(the elapsed time to move that 1 ft distance)

If the motion takes 1 second, then the associated “error” is 1 ft/sec, or about 0.7 mph. If it takes only 1/2 a second, the real speed of the motion will be 2 ft/sec, or 1.4 mph. But…the GPS apparently averages over a period of 1 second (possibly more), so during the other half second of the averaging period the speed will be 0. Hence the speed error (for this example) will never exceed 0.7 mph for fast motions, and it will be the actual speed of the motion if that is less than 0.7 mph.

Moreover, moving the GPS receiver to the board can introduce some additonal inaccuracies since the solid angle of sky “visible” to the GPS receiver is reduced (it is now lower in the “valley” formed by the wave). That means that there is an increased likelihood that the number of satellites it can “track” is reduced. According to the GPS literature, generally the more satellites tracked, the greater the accuracy (many of the errors are random and tend to cancel out better as the number of measurements increases).

Apart from the accuracy of the measurements, the helmet-mounted GPS has some other advantages–one of which is that it spends less time submerged in the water, so any slow leaks (in the containment bag or box) are less likely to be damaging to the unit (the “waterproof” units sold to the general public are typically only guaranteed to be waterproof for 30 minutes at a depth of 1m in quiescent water–a far cry from surfing conditions). Another factor to consider is that with a helmet mounted unit in some areas the GPS probably won’t get damaged if one’s leash breaks and the board goes into the rocks.

Hence all things considered, my vote is for a helmet-mounted GPS, rather than a board mounting.

mtb

Yes that’s all well and good but you’d have to be aiming at the board and rider from head on at all times…

Pointing it from side on will only show maybe 3-4 metres shift, head on could be 20 metres…

Wouldn’t a trailing impeller or Pitot-tube hooked up to a calibrated speedo showing peak speed give a better and standardised reading across all boards…

Quote:

Since your GPS is mounted on your head, what heapen if you suddenly bend forward? You get a quick spike in speed. The board doesn’t slow down because you compensate with your body weight to stay in balance(your feet does not move).

I suggest the GPS must be mounted on the board to measure board speed accuratly.

regards,

Håvard

No, it will work fine on your head … . moving your head forward a few inches is not going to make much difference, especially over 10 metres of ride. . . . but if you see me unscrewing my helmet and hurling it way ahead of my board you can call foul OK ?

:slight_smile:

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Wouldn’t a trailing impeller or Pitot-tube hooked up to a calibrated speedo showing peak speed give a better and standardised reading across all boards…

According to MTB, Bakestah and Bill Barnfield, who have used impeller based recorders alongside gps, the two systems have very similar results.

Didn’t I say that before?

By the way a "better and standardised reading across all boards " sounds like a desire to have all boards standardised in speed. . . a kind of communism of speed surfing, lowest common demominator poppy lopping and all that.

Fortunately some boards will always be faster than others so it will never happen !

Cheers

:

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. . but if you see me unscrewing my helmet and hurling it way ahead of my board you can call foul OK ?

:slight_smile:

Like the red hand of Ulster:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Hand_of_Ulster[url]

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Yes that’s all well and good but you’d have to be aiming at the board and rider from head on at all times…

Pointing it from side on will only show maybe 3-4 metres shift, head on could be 20 metres…

Wouldn’t a trailing impeller or Pitot-tube hooked up to a calibrated speedo showing peak speed give a better and standardised reading across all boards…

In case it wasn’t clear in my post, I was recommending the use of GPS mounted on the upper portion of the body (rather than on the board)–and not recommending the use of a laser speedometer, radar gun, etc…

If one does use a laser speedometer or radar gun, one should, as you suggest, do so at a break where the curl progresses at a relatively constant rate and you can stand along an extension of the pathline of the surfer on the wave. There is some misalignment tolerance in these measurements. For example, if you’re positioned off from a head-on alignment by 10 degrees (which is readily evident as you have to rotate the alignment of the instrument as the rider moves toward you), the error in the speed associated with not being directly head-on is only 1.5 percent, for example 0.3 mph in 20 mph. At a misalignment of 20 degrees, the error increases to 6 percent; at 30 degrees, 14 percent. So some effort should be make to keep such alignment errors within +/- 10-15 degrees).

As far as a trailing impeller or pitot tube based speed measurements…remember that these measure speeds “through the water” while a GPS measures speed “over the bottom”. So it depends on what type of measurement you’re looking for (“over the bottom” is most closely related to being able to “make the wave”; “through the water” is most closely related to the hydrodynamics of the board/wave combination). The two speeds can be very different in some situations.

mtb

Quote:

…Apart from the accuracy of the measurements, the helmet-mounted GPS has some other advantages–one of which is that it spends less time submerged in the water, so any slow leaks (in the containment bag or box) are less likely to be damaging to the unit (the “waterproof” units sold to the general public are typically only guaranteed to be waterproof for 30 minutes at a depth of 1m in quiescent water–a far cry from surfing conditions)…

mtb

FWIW, here is a table comparing the different systems for rating water resistance, and defining the ratings:

http://www.controleng.com/index.asp?layout=articlePrint&articleID=CA188464

-Samiam

Quote:

From this information, I would suspect that speeds are computed from two (or more) measurements of distance versus the elapsed time between them.

That’s wrong, it meassures the doppler shift in the light frequence, which is quite close to the way a GPS is measuring doppler shift from the sattelites if I understand what others have stated here on the forum.

I’d say test the GPS on head and on the board and see if you get the same high speed spikes with both mounts.

regards,

Håvard

Hi Haavard,

Just a small point. . . the highest speed readings shouldn’t be referred to as ‘spikes’ . . ‘spikes’ are erroneous readings, not measured top speeds. Some posters here seem to have assumed that all top speeds are spikes, which isn’t the case .

cheers

Quote:
Quote:

From this information, I would suspect that speeds are computed from two (or more) measurements of distance versus the elapsed time between them.

That’s wrong, it meassures the doppler shift in the light frequence, which is quite close to the way a GPS is measuring doppler shift from the sattelites if I understand what others have stated here on the forum.

I’d say test the GPS on head and on the board and see if you get the same high speed spikes with both mounts.

regards,

Håvard

Are you sure about the laser speedometer using Doppler to measure speeds? Here’s some info I found comparing various enforcement means for measuring vehicle speeds:


b. RADAR

An acronym for “Radio Detection And Ranging,” radar involves the transmission of electromagnetic waves that reflect off a moving object. When the wave is reflected, it changes frequency and is interpreted by the radar unit in a speed calculation. This change is referred to as the Doppler effect or Doppler shift. ……

d. LIDAR

One of the more recent devices used in law enforcement for speed measurement is laser or LIDAR (Light Detection And Ranging). LIDAR devices use an infrared light wave emitted at frequencies that allow the beam to be focused into an extremely narrow target area. The devices are usually operated in the hand-held mode……The theory behind laser technology is that speed is calculated by dividing the distance by the time of the light pulses of the laser (S=D/T of light pulses).

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Here’s another article (from an ad for a scrambling device to confuse a laser speedometer) that also indicates that a laser-based speedometer computes speed from distance/time measurements:

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Works with laser, too! The Phazer also protects your vehicle from Lidar guns that use the change in distance over time to detect a vehicle’s speed. The Phazer uses light-emitting diodes (LEDs) to fire invisible infrared pulses through the windshield. Laser guns interpret those pulses as a false indication of the car’s distance, blocking measurement of your speed.


Here’s yet another article with some more information:


Laser Guns, LTI 20-20,Prolaser II, RIEGL Laser Guns.

The Laser Gun fires a harmless, narrow laser beam and computes distance using the simple change of position over time formula, rather than a radio frequency shift. While radar projects a broad, cone-shaped beam 200 to 400 feet wide, with an effective range of only a few hundred yards, the Laser Gun beam widens to just 3 feet at a range of 1000 feet in most cases. Individual vehicles can be isolated during heavy traffic due to laser’s pinpoint accuracy.

Well, it seems that although LIDAR is good at measuring speed and distance, the guns are a bit of a pain to use. Fog, rain, dust, vehicle halogen headlights, movement, (just to mention a few) make the guns more difficult to use than radar. They can’t be used inside a nice warm police car either unless the window is down most won’t work through glass without error.

When used for distances over 400 yards they usually have to be tripod mounted or steadied to stop beam shake and instability. [left]With handheld laser, a 1 degree movement of the operator’s hand moves the beam 6-7ft for every 100 yards the beam travels from the gun. [left]

Laser speed detection renders radar detectors useless due to laser’s tight beam-width (two feet at 800 feet) a radar/laser detector mounted outside the beam’s strike-zone will give little or no warning, and thus isolates the most flagrant speeders, however a Laser or Radar Jammer will help if mounted well on your vehicle, some of the systems sold will give you enough time to slow before the next reading is taken, for more info see my links page for more information.
Most Laser Guns measure speed in 1/3 second, not nearly enough time for a driver to react to a laser detector warning. [left]But to acquire a reading, the laser beam must bounce directly back to the laser gun from a flat reflective surface. Consequently, laser guns are specifically aimed at a vehicle’s licence plate or front headlights, and the gun’s computer looks for the strongest return signal

[/left]*********************************************

[/left]

[/left][=1][ 3]All these articles are in agreement and indicate that while a RADAR-based speed gun uses the Doppler shift to measure the speed, the laser-based systems us the time/distance method.[/]

With regard to the head-mounted vs board-mounted GPS comparison…if the two measurements disagree (at least some of the time), how does one know which is correct?

[/]

Thanks for the rating tables with definitions and the rating comparisons.

Most small “waterproof” GPS’s sold to the general public (e.g. Garmin Gecko 201) are rated at IPX7 (a NEMA, UL, and CSA rating of 6). This rating is described in the IEC/IP table you provided as: “Ingress of water in quantities causing harmful effects shall not be possible when the enclosure is continuously immersed in water under standardized conditions of pressure and time”. The IPX7 rating sets the standardized conditions as a time of 30 minutes; a pressure corresponding to a depth of 1 meter of water; and quiescent water.)

mtb

A lidar may not work the same way as the police laser guns. Here is a rough translation of how a police laser gun works (from a norwegian website).

“43 pulses are sent using a pulse repetition frequency of 125Hz. The transmitter is an infrared lazer with 905nm wavelength. 10 (or 13) pulses are sync pulses, the remaining 30 (or 33) are used for the actual measurement. The measurement is partly based on puls doplar shift prinsiple since the the difference between the pulse repetition frequency between transmitting and receiving is use to calculate the speed of the object).”

So I’m partly mistaken, I thought they used the shift in light frequency while in reality the use the pulse frequency shift. The principle is the same though. The wikipedia article about lidar notes that the term is sometime mistakenly used for laser radar. I agree that it’s very impractical to use a lasar gun to measure surfer speed, nor a normal police radar(although I have a wetsuit hood with radar reflective material in case you are lost at sea.)

Regardless, whatever means are used to measure I think a quick movement can give errorous data if the measurement is instantanious(sp?).

With regards to which measurement is wrong if you get two different readings between board and ride, you don’t know. But you know you have an error to investigate. For statistical purposes I’d throw out the highest.

Tom, I thought you said you had changed to using the doplar shift for measuring the speed. sorry.

regarrds,

Håvard

Hi Haavard, no apology needed, we are using both ( The Garmin units do both at once)

Regarding head movement, unless one has an extraordinarily long and flexible neck I can’t see head movement changing a reading much, I doubt if I can move my head forward at more than about 2mph for 6 inches , and I am not in the habit of doing head thrusting movements while surfing. . . can’t speak for others though.

The Doppler and the time/distance recorder agree in our experience to within about 0.5 mph

Cyclone swell coming at last, maybe a 30mph plus track coming up, here’s hoping

PS Even if I managed to gain 1mph on a Doppler reading by hurling my head around it’s fairly obvious that the anti speed slowboarding trolls whoi enjoy howling on threads like this would not notice the difference between a speed 0f 36 and 37 mph. . . . they are left wallowing in my wake either way (figuratively speaking) and I still have a large speed advantage

Chiz Chiz ! (As Molesworth used to say )

:slight_smile:

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tom witht that cyclone swell just post your track times and put the slowboarding trolls in their place. Long live the speed demon Roy Stewart!!!