I have a name-brand board that is perfect, but the particular shaper who made it is no longer available to shape another for me, and this one is getting old. Is it unethical to have it scanned and cloned? Is this even possible? Plus, if possible, what about all the pressure dents on the deck? And, do they do this service up on Westlake?
Please don’t jump down my throat on this one. I am only asking if it’s ethical, not planning on doing it (unless, of course, it IS ethical).
Any ideas?
This is generally considered unethical although its not illegal since you cant patent a shape. Most C&C services wont do it but i have heard some will. Is it possible to talk to the shaper? Maybe he will let you do it. Any pressure dents can be filled with spackle before scanning.
How about making it yourself?? That way you could get it “close” and have the board you want duplicated. If you took your time …and were a little anal about it…(you know,measure,look,feel,measure,look,cut,feel,plane,measure,look,feel…)… I am sure it could be done. Then nothing could be said about it…if you have it cnc’d that in my opinion is kinda like stealing if you don’t have permission. My 2cents…peace and waves…
As a furniture maker who has crafted a few balsa boards, I know it is common for some furniture craftsman to take great pains in duplicating a certain museum or historical piece as precisely as possible right down to the grain of the wood, hardware, and even the tiny blemishes. I don’t see why it would matter to copy another shape.
For sure I would never imagine coying a logo or a signature so as to pass off a board as someone else’s board. Maybe consideer copying the shape but change the stringer config., color, graphics, or slightly tweek something your own way.
I remember it seemed everyone back in the 60s traced every name brand board. I recall one story told where Dale Velzy walked up to a guy outside his surf shop tracing one of his new shapes onto a board with chalk. According to the story, Dale just smiled and asked him to bring his finished board by the shop and show it to him when he finished it.
Seems to me when we use sureforms and planers there is no question about copying a shape, but now with computerized machines people wonder or feel guilty. The machine is just another tool.
You must fill out a release form, on it is the mfgs. name and place for signature, also the shapers sig. and release
Copying is a copyright violation. Getting permission from the original shaper would be appropriate. However, if he doesn’t make boards anymore, and it is for your personal use, the ‘damage’ is pretty minimal.
On the other hand, you could measure the rocker and width and thickness every six inches, and give the measurements and description to a shaper, and expect something reasonably close (if the shaper is good). And there is nothing illegal about that. Such measurements for some boards are available in books, which practically invites using them as starting parameters.
Unethical my ass. I’ve said this before: Any shaper worth a sh*t should be able to make an exact copy of that board for you by hand. It won’t ride exactly the same, but it’ll be close. Ditto with throwing the thing on the shaping machine. Actually, since you would be scanning the board with the glass on it, it won’t be an exact copy, at least the hand shaper will be able to compensate. Surfboards are all pretty much a copy of each other these days, so who gives a shit? 1/8 inch dimension fluctuations, and now the shape is original? Sheez, it’s either a shortboard, longboard, egg, fish, hybrid, etc. Give credit to the original designers behind each of the above designs and move on. Pay no attention to the logos, everything these days is just a knock off anyhow. -Carl
I had a rider bring me a FOUND surfboard to look over and shape him something like it. The measurements were all over the scale, they varied everywhere and it was off the machine, it said 18-3/8", was 18-1/8"
Take it up to Santa Cruz and have Olsen shape it or shape one yourself. Post pictures when done, before and after.
Your gut will tell you what you do is ethical or not.
If you can clone a sheep, you can clone a board.
If you have a problem with ethics, if you hear a bell ringing,
Make sure to follow it:>
Johnny.............
I get shaped blanks from several brand-name companies that I do business with. Some details are to my specifications, but overall they’re the same as the named models on their racks. It is definitely not ethical to put their logo’s on these unless they say it’s ok (some may want the advertising). What I do is use my own logo, but on the bottom above the fins I write “Shape courtesy of XYZ” and the name of the shaper if I use an opaque lam and you can’t see his signature. I put this on with a paint pen in a very legible size and then gloss over it. I always bring the finished board back to show them that it’s for my own use and I’m not having the blank scanned. The “who really owns the shape anyway” debate has gone on forever, even in the courts. Only the rights to the shape’s name and the logo belong to whoever currently owns the company. Shapers that originally made certain popular models while working for a company often lay claim to the design. It may really be their design, but you pretty much surrender your rights to it if you’re an employee while you do it (at least in Calif).
ethics?..doesn’t seem like the surf industry has much lately.
Copying is one thing, forgery is another. Any shaper that says he never copied, or was influenced by another, is a liar. It should be considered flattery, just don’t sign someone elses name.
Is "intelectual property " a misnomer in the surf world? So Crusty reissues the 84 Occy model and Joe smoe who owns the local surfshop takes one off his racks, he purchased it, does that mean he can have it scanned and sell it on his racks right next to the rusty for 100 bucks less? Did you know Crusty is 6-4 250 and a black belt with a bad temper?
Any shaper worth his salt would tell his customer that he would shape a board influenced by the said board, In my case I have told many a customer if you want a Frye style board go get a Frye here’s Skips number ect. If a guy is willing to copy a board exact chances are he does’nt have the experience enough to do it anyways.
As far as taking someone elses board in for a scan, in my mind that is theft of intelectual property, and yes I’m sure you are going to once again find the hungry guy who is going to do it. when you do make sure to make it public so the honest people in this so called industry can make note and decline to support these actions monetarily. Thank you please drive through—S.A.
S.A.- When it comes to the Fish, Skip Fry is simply copying Steve Lis… so why don’t you send your excess customers to me and I’ll knock off Steve Lis’s boards for them? And seeing that you’re so ethical and such, I’ll be dropping by to pick up any thruster fin setups that you have laying around your shop later on… unless S.A. stands for Simon Anderson of course. If THE surfboard is intellectual property, then who owns the rights? If A surfboard is intellectual property, then who defines how much of a difference it has to be from one board to the next? I’ve seen pretty radical designs thought up on different sides of the country at the same time, who gets the credit? What’s the difference between extremely influenced and straight up copied, when we are talking about surfboards? And above all, whats wrong with feeding the hungry guy, instead of putting more money in Crusty’s coffer? -Carl
Do it, what the hell is it going to matter, if its for you.
But leave the lable off on general prinicple.
If you like the board that much why hesitate, its not like shapers are all knowing folks.
I have a Caster that i’m gonna have copied when it breaks.
checked webster,somthing like conforming to a code of behavior in a given proffession…so we are writnig the code right here …should it start …THOU SHALT NOT… or maybe …end VIOLATORS WILL BE>>> or just be based on noll r.f.ed velzy on the last of the balsa so I can RF all you guys and make a fortune off your cosmic inspiration, in itself a class8huricane… and withstanding the introduction of Litigation into the mix not likely to come to a conclusion…A higher minded reality is to believe that a sheet of tracing paper does not insure you a copy of the mona lisa…copy what you will when you will what is missing is the unmeasurable…the gift given you by the guy that won’t shape you anotherone is the open door to create somthing higher turning the love of that board into a physical form,the board is nothing without the human APPRECIATION and investment of human spirit into the board…your yes Your appreciation and spirit…shortcuting the process with a tracing machine shortchanges the spirit YOUR spirit …just a tool arguements are jive excuses for copying sombody elses home work…copy it off the Internet homeqork site and you remain an untrained Graduate of an Ivy league Institution that does not have the ability to think oneself out of a paper bag…Andy Ramming copyied a template yesterday that Ive been refining for thirty years the question is will he fix that flat spot or belive that its the true resolution of the form should I demand royalties every time he uses it maybe an apple per board or a pear and an apple or maybe a promise to make a template off his own shape some day… when he replaced the template in the shed he walked back out with another template and said this is the same shape I made my other board from (figuratively of course) I then told him which end was which and he said that his board was of course reversed end for end and I realized that all my years of refinement were as safe as they always were locked in the vault of my own interpretation …there are no copies there are no clones the spirit of the act of shaping is the act of shaping and only the entry level surfers accepting machine duplications will remain confused and Ignorant to the fact…of course the “veteran” I KNOW SHIP GUYS who have chosen to dumb down their sensibilities in order to accept a board cheapened by process will lose the sensitivity as well…ETHICS…ETHICAL… a loaded word and question…shaping machine threads have gotten incredible numbers of hits this is surely an indication of the refocus to surfboard design shortcutting … bless the mind not illuminated with creativity may their machine programs outlive them…ambrose…running a coppier can be creative … XEROX the xeroxiator xeroxiating with xeroxity
It’s all Vanity anyway. How many of us are reeeeely good enough to know the difference in the ride of a board scanned 1/16" different than another vs how many of us just THINK we know the difference. Surfboards are shaped like surfboards. Find a shape you like, tweek it out your way, shape it your way, and smile. We all know it’s wrong to do a replica of a black Dora and try to sell it off as an original, but to copy a board you like and shape it your way for yourself with your name on it is what it’s all about and always has been. Enjoy the ride!
Shaping one for yourself as a hobbiest is one thing- scanning or taking it to market is another.
Most proffesional craftsman would simply tell the customer that they would be glad to make somthing inspired by the original.
Oh by the way Skip does shape more than just his Stevie inspired fish and is probably much better known for his L.B.'s I.E.
the “Eagle”, “Magic” and his big “Double Eagle”
Also my apologies to fairmont ,upon closer examination of his original post I don’t want it to seem like I was juping down his throat
Couple of things.
One - nothing wrong with copying someone’s board, as long as it’s for personal use. Also, as long as you dont put their name on your board either.
haha HEY CHECK OUT THIS BRAND NEW GREG NOLL I JUST FOUND!
Doesnt work like that.
But if you copy a shape that someone previously did, nothing wrong with that.
Now, if you are selling and mass producing your boards and making profit off of them, I think it would be a bit unethical to directly copy someone’s shape. you have to consider other things with that as well, such as “basic board shapes” that are found everywhere.
basically, there are so many influences and shapes that you cant narrow it down to any one person you’d be copying. Just like making a surfboard for a certain condition, there are too many variables to narrow it down.
Aloha
Bryan