It looks like most people use RR… It looks like that is really focused on surfboard building more so than any other brand.
I have built three boards using MAS epoxy and they seem reasonably light, the epoxy is super strong. What I did on the first board was did several coats of Spar varnish for the “gloss” coat. The other ones I did I did a poly gloss coat.
The hardener I used was the slow hardner which means about a 5-6 hour gel time, but my glass jobs have truned out really nice every time. I imagine I could probably go to the faster hardeners, but I am a backyard board builder so I really don’t care as long as it turns out ok.
I guess my question is what epoxy do you use and why?
Slow for laminating, but wait until tomorrow to sand
Fast for hotcoats - sandable in six hours
They also have a three minute that is great for fin plugs. hard but a little rubbery in three minutes. sandable in a few hours. very little exotherm.
One thing I really like about it is that it dents, but doesn’t shatter. I surf a really rocky point, and sent the board nose first into a boulder. The glass didn’t crack at all, just pushed in a little. sort of like a shopping cart into your car door. Does RR dent like this or more like poly?
Howzit da5id, The only way to really find out is to try them all over and decide which one works best for you. Different strokes for different folks. Aloha,Kokua
I use Fiberglass Hawaii resins and hardeners, both the poly and epoxy. I use regular poly laminating resin, the UV cure for sanding resin, and their fast hardener for epoxy.
I’ve tried using an epoxy pour on gloss finish and it was very nice, but it takes 8 hours to dry so you need a clean room for that. I’ve also used spar urethane (liquid) for a finish, but that need several coats, and spray urethane for finish coats over epoxy. Lately I’ve just added a little de-natured alcohol to the final coat of epoxy to thin it out and make it flow better. I’ve had mixed results using poly resin over epoxy for the final coat.
I used marine epoxy on one board because I didn’t want to go over to FH and it has yellowed quite a bit. A good way to make a board look old.
Denting depends on which resin and which foam you use. KK is very strong with the least denting. 2000 is the standard while 2020 is quite flexy and dents more followed by 2040 which is the most flexible. Depends on what you like. We have guys who like the bottom to be more flexible than the deck so they use two different resins. All about what you like.
See, that’s what i want to know about - when you say 2 different resins I’m assuming you’re referring to a 2020 bottom and a 2000 deck. I read one comment around here saying something about Bert Berger using three different resins on his boards, apparently to modulate the flex attributes in different areas of the board.
Yes exactly. Sam Barker in FL uses 2020 bottoms and 2000 decks. Well, he used to, now he does KK decks. You can change the feel of the board through different flex patterns in the resins. It’s why we began to produce the full line so people could do this. After doing this for at least 15 years, in reality few board builders get it. But we’re still hoping that one day it’ll click.
I don’t want to become a nag on the topic but I reckon you’ve probably tried just about every combination there is and I’d very much like to soak up whatever you’re willing to share so I don’t have to reinvent the wheel.
I want to do veneers top and bottom on stringerless blanks because I know they’ll add to the longevity and I believe they can take the place of a stringer, but the rap on doing them top and bottom is that unless the thicknesses are 2" or less they end up being overbuilt and too stiff. I understand that flex in epoxies can run the full spectrum and that the baseline for the epoxies used for surfboards is more or less in line with your 2000 resin because that’s been found to be a good compromise overall.
But now that we’re getting into more sophisticated builds - especially with the Compsands and your Timberflex variations, it also seems like there’s some room in there to refine our usage of the epoxies. I’m really open to using different versions of epoxy in different areas to take advantage of their different attributes as appropriate. Obviously it’s easier to stick with a single vendor and at the moment I don’t see any of the surf-centric epoxy vendors offering the multiple versions RR offers.
For instance, I could see using a more flexible resin (like a 2020 or even a 2040 in bagging on the bottom veneer to keep it loose and using the 2000 resin for bagging the deck and doing the lam and fill on both sides, and maybe using the KK or your 1980 for doing the finishes. This brings me to some questions:
If I was going to use (for example) 2 or even 3 different modulus resins on the bottom of a timberflex (inside the veneer + lam&fill + finish) my perception is that it makes more sense to start with the more flexible resin on the inside and work my way out to the stiffer resin for the finish. Does that make sense?
For the deck, I was even thinking of doing a partial prelam of the deck veneer with an impact-area sized deckpatch in the 2000 and then using the 2020 to bag the veneer on; or skipping the prelam and simply rollering on the 2000 over the deckpatch and the 2020 around it. That way I could use a little more glass on the deck lamination (to get more coverage on the rails) without ending up with a table. Unlike some builders, a little extra weight doesn’t scare me at all.
I know in the past you have encouraged people to not overthink the Timberflex process and keep it simple, but I don’t think that merely mixing the resins whilst keeping the rest of the process the same involves any extra effort. Other than buying more product from you, of course. Obviously, if you tell me that you’ve tried all this and the difference involved in a more targeted approach to using resins to control flex patterns in a T-flex build isn’t going to be noticeable because of the wood then I’m going to take that seriously.
Once again, sorry for the nag; but I figured you already have the inside info on all this.
West Systems for my woodies - performed incredibly well in hard shallow shore dump and sandbars that split some timber, nearly my shoulder and of course the ocasional wall or two last season. I used the 207 hardener
When using epoxy for adhesive as in sticking down veneers I really haven’t seen a difference in flex characteristics. It’s in composites that we see a real marked change in different modulus resins. In the T-Flex boards we’ve done recently we’ve just used KK for gluing veneers since we can get the blank out of the bag quick and then a 2020 bottom and a KK deck. KK for finishing as well. We only use a 2 ounce under the veneer on decks and just resin under on bottoms. The original T-Flex also had parabolic stringers and high density foam rails which added quite a bit of stiffness. Later builds have only a center 1/16th basswood stringer and no high density foam so they aren’t as stiff.
Thanks Greg. Your comments lead me to believe that whatever control of stiffness there is with a T-Flex build is limited to which stringer option you’re using and the exterior lam. Are you still using one layer of 4oz top and bottom or did you switch that up?
Guns and longboards I use 6 oz unless I’m looking for really light weights. Just depends on the build. Heavier guys you use more glass as well because they generally like stiffer boards and are harder on the decks. Build is not that different from considering shape. People are different … there is no “perfect build” for everyone just as there is no “perfect shape” for everyone.
In my small experiments, i found that veneer on deck and strong lam on bottom is the simple way to go. First i use balsa 1,5mm sandwiched on 2# EPS, very little light foot prints, now i use thin veneer on same foam, lot more foot prints, flexier and less springer surfboards. Now i go to stitched glass fiber with high ratio reinforcement/resin (inspired by perfect job of coil), and i think more and more that thin veneer don’t give so much resistance compare to a well made glass/epoxy, but look is very good (if you like)
The stitched double bias 6oz is very good and keeps resin content down. Veneers are excellent and you can get really great results there as well. And Coil vacuum tech … what can I say that hasn’t been said? IMHO all three of these are very futuristic builds.
I've been very happy with the epoxy resin from Surf Source. I'm not sure exactly what it is as I'm sure they are re-labeling someone else's resin but its cheap and gives real good results.