What is flex?

General Discussion
1

Hello,

I’ve just reread the “where is flex important?” thread and I think we need a new thread “What is flex?”

I’m the “flexspoon” guy. You may have seen this board(or you may be sick of seeing it).

It has “flex with little or no return” designed into many areas as well as “flex and return or spring” - in other areas. They are obviously not the same.

The first , “flex with little or no return”, is what happens in nature. We could call it “morphological and anatomical adaptations” if the board was a living creature. I consider that board to be alive in the water. In many ways it allows or permits me to ride it while it constantly adjusts itself to the situation without any input from me - reshaping and contouring itself to the wave constantly. FLEX At the same time I can use my mass, the wave and sheer muscle power(pulling on the rail) to flex or bend the board in such a way that it will “flex and return or spring”. FLEX/SPRING Or I can use my mass, the wave and sheer muscle power to flex or bend the board to my advantage without any “return or spring”. FLEX By my count I have 1 automatic and 2 optional ways of utilizing flex to my advantage.

As far as I know at the present time much of this “technology?” is not available to standup riders or kneeboarders on hard shell or skin boards.

I think those interested in flex are mainly after TWANG(flex and spring) while only some flexspoon riders(not all flexspoons exhibit “morphological and anatomical adaptations”) and mat riders and ??? can experience the others.

So WHAT IS FLEX?

Here is the definition from http://www.thefreedictionary.com/flex

flex (flks)v. flexed, flex·ing, flex·es

v.tr.

  1. To bend (something pliant or elastic).

  2. a. To bend (a joint).

b. To bend (a joint) repeatedly.

  1. a. To contract (a muscle, for example).

b. To move by muscular control: “Sandy flexes his brow characteristically” Scott Turow.

  1. To exhibit or show off the strength of: “They had spent six years since the lightning Six Day War flexing their invincibility” Howard Kaplan.

v.intr.To bend: “His hands flexed nervously as he spoke” Mary McCarthy.

n.1. Chiefly British Flexible insulated electric cord.

  1. The act or an instance of flexing; a bending.

  2. Pliancy; flexibility: “‘Resolution’ has none of that modern flex we favor, with generous, built-in amounts of ‘maybe’” Melvin Maddocks.

Idiom: flex (one’s) muscles Informal To exhibit or show off one’s strength.

[Latin flectere, flex-, to bend.]

In conclusion

  1. flex with little or no return is a good thing when it is designed in FLEX

  2. flex and return or spring(flex/spring) is a good thing when it is designed in FLEX/SPRING

3 designed in flex and return or spring(flex/spring) that doesn’t provide the spring is a failure FAILURE

Any ideas on this? Is there flex and flex/spring? We need to come to an agreement on some common terms as I know you guys that are designing flex into surfboards are really on to something.

So WHAT IS FLEX?

time to go FLEX my body into fetal position and go to sleep…

2

interesting…

i think flex is the one performance variable that I would truly classify as still ‘mysterious’…the last frontier…very difficult to understand and even more difficult to design/control…i should know lots more within the next year…

ps - you liked ‘surfboarditis’ huh?

3

oh yeah almost forgot…

engineers use the term ‘compliant’…passive flex w/o flex return would be compliant…like the bottom of a surfmat

4

Surf mats have the characteristics of both compliance and resistance.

When surfing, they’re influenced by the changing curves and textures of the wave face, the level of inflation, and manipulation of internal pressure by rider’s hands/arms… carefully timed squeezing and releasing of front edges and corners.

In the blink of an eye, a modern surf mat’s active contact areas can go from fairly full and firm, to thin and supple

… the “magic towel”.

5

hey dale! long time no hear…has my friend ron ordered a mat from ya yet? he is a big guy, so it might be a bit of a challenge.summer surf here was pretty bleak, however, the mat allowed me to get out on many days i would have otherwise just passed up.kp and i have had some real fun sessions on our mats.the feeling is quite addicting! it’s like being a kid again.thanks!

matt

6

Hey guys,

I’ll chip in my $0.02 :slight_smile:

For us flex is simply the ability to bend. Within that there’s whether the bending item/plane resists the flex of passively allows it.

Return/flex is different, but related. An object which flexes passively will not return without external force applied to it and has zero return. Anything that resists flex will have return.

These probably are a bit mystical at the moment. Nice to have something relatively new to explore :slight_smile:

-doug

7

Hmmm… What if you could store or amplify this bending movement in other parts of the surfboard? Instead of just using the fiberglass and timber as skin. Darn, another door. (muscles and tendons, etc.)

8

Hey Daddio!

Nah, not necesarily another door :smiley: Read our discussion on the Balsa Rails…Comments/Ideas thread. This is exactly what we are exploring in vac sandwich eps construction for stand-ups. Pre-tensioning is the key to really tuning this up.

-doug

9

Yeah, I’ve been following… But more like a dis.

Is the cosmos moving in slow motion or are we only capable of monitoring the puny bandwidth we have been given.

http://www.swaylocks.com/forum/gforum.cgi?post=217023;search_string=muscle;guest=2480613#217023

Can’t disect a dolphin OR a Bert Burger board. (hint: the rail doesn’t look like a muscle to me) The revolution starts from within (your mind) it’s dynamic, dude!

10

There is no spoon…

Hey Flexspoon…

Thanks for bringing your Paul Gross - George Greenough inspired/designed velo flex spoon into the Cerritos Modelmaking class last night. Needless to say you blew our minds, cause it’s one thing to see pictures, but these things are alive, dynamic, dude! The lamination layers are so damn subtle and the shape and contours and oh my, I got goosebumps. I was wondering who was gonna come forward and pass on the knowledge, it’s ironic that your name is George too. Whew, Ken, I don’t know…

Also we’ll have THREE Greg style boards going (CJ, MM, and daddio), and TWO Berts (Glenn and daddio)

Some high fire hollow and foam and balsa core fins. And we’ll figure how to fix deck delams vacuum bag style ala the Board Lady. And down the line, Terry wants to bag skateboard decks and skimboards with inner city kids. (ride your skateboard to the bus then ride down to the beach and skimboard) Don’t say anything to him just yet - I’m not sure if I’ve told him the whole plan. MM, Glenn and son and I went out to Segway Composites last weekend and cut some blanks and Ken has graciously allowed me to post the results and pictures. Also, there is a couple that own a surfboard supply company in Long Beach taking the class cause they want to keep up. Also a couple of younger dudes, one of whom makes skimboards, shhh!

Back to our naps…

11

Hey Daddio,

Quote:

Daddio - Thanks for bringing your Paul Gross - George Greenough inspired/designed velo flex spoon into the Cerritos Modelmaking class last night. Needless to say you blew our minds, cause it’s one thing to see pictures, but these things are alive, dynamic, dude! The lamination layers are so damn subtle and the shape and contours and oh my, I got goosebumps. I was wondering who was gonna come forward and pass on the knowledge, it’s ironic that your name is George too. Whew, Ken, I don’t know…

I was glad to have the opportunity to sit in that class. I’ve got to get some knowledge before I can pass it on! That’s why I was at the class as well as here at Swaylocks.

I also appreciate the feedback from you and Glenn and others in the class.

This is the board he is talking about:

Built by Paul Gross as part of Project Velo back in 2000. This one has not yet been ridden - still a virgin.

You can find more pics of her or one of her sister boards in the Swaylock’s photo section http://www.swaylocks.com/resources/detail_page.cgi?ID=445

So Daddio and Glenn - you felt how much she flexed in your hands and on the table - imagine the bend in that board or the red one at the top of this thread when riding 6-8’ Rincon.

Quote:

Daddio again

Hmmm… What if you could store or amplify this bending movement in other parts of the surfboard? Instead of just using the fiberglass and timber as skin. Darn, another door. (muscles and tendons, etc.)

I keep thinking along those lines too. The flex/twist is the storing and the spring is the release. This is where the new materials, resins and structures come in.

What I want is “a structure that magnifies input”. When I use all the forces like speed, momentum, gravity, my weight, ??? to flex(bend and twist) the board in a bottom turn I want the spring to be a multiple of that. Simple.

and this guy already has it

Quote:

from Popular Science Oct 2003

Want a structure that magnifies input—that, say, takes an ounce of pressure at one end and exerts a pound of pressure at the other? Punch a few keys on the computer and—bingo!—the algorithms design a compliant structure that does just that. “It’s all in the math,” Kota says. “The algorithms tell you the optimal way to solve a performance requirement, to create a structure that gains its functionality from its topology, size and shape with no weak points, giving you better performance more reliably. You could never do it with trial and error.”

That’s what I am talking about. It is out there. Aren’t we already dealing with “Free Energy” from the wave and gravity. And the way you surf can multiply that energy. That’s part of what the flex thing is all about.

12

> Yeah, I’ve been following… But more like a dis.

Cheeky sod! ;=D

Is the cosmos moving in slow motion or are we only capable of monitoring the puny bandwidth we have been given.

Sturgeon!

http://www.swaylocks.com/forum/gforum.cgi?post=217023;search_string=muscle;guest=2480613#217023

Can’t disect a dolphin OR a Bert Burger board. (hint: the rail doesn’t look like a muscle to me) The revolution starts from within (your mind) it’s dynamic, dude!

LOL! Mate, muscle is composed of fibers. In fine motor control all fibers contribute to finess! Never said the rail would do everything… But it would certainly be in the picture.

Does a muscle look layered and finely responsive from the skin surface?

-doug

13
Quote:

I keep thinking along those lines too. The flex/twist is the storing and the spring is the release. This is where the new materials, resins and structures come in.

What I want is “a structure that magnifies input”. When I use all the forces like speed, momentum, gravity, my weight, ??? to flex(bend and twist) the board in a bottom turn I want the spring to be a multiple of that. Simple.

and this guy already has it

Quote:

from Popular Science Oct 2003

Want a structure that magnifies input—that, say, takes an ounce of pressure at one end and exerts a pound of pressure at the other? Punch a few keys on the computer and—bingo!—the algorithms design a compliant structure that does just that. “It’s all in the math,” Kota says. “The algorithms tell you the optimal way to solve a performance requirement, to create a structure that gains its functionality from its topology, size and shape with no weak points, giving you better performance more reliably. You could never do it with trial and error.”

That’s what I am talking about. It is out there. Aren’t we already dealing with “Free Energy” from the wave and gravity. And the way you surf can multiply that energy. That’s part of what the flex thing is all about.

At the risk of being labelled pedantic… Nothing can “magnify” input energy. Physical impossibility. The best that can be achieved is relatively lossless energy storage and relatively lossless energy release. And “relatively” is an important key word here. Flex (or compress), resist and recover are are the functions of mechanical energy storage devices, these dictate the amount of energy that can be stored. How do these apply here?

-doug

14

Flex (or compress), resist and recover are are the functions of mechanical energy storage devices, these dictate the amount of energy that can be stored. How do these apply here?

well douglas, its really quite simple…

what feels better?

jumping up and down on a hard floor…

or jumping up and down on a mattress?

energy conservation is the same with each,

but which one would you prefer doing?

the revolution is eminent…

15
Quote:

Surf mats have the characteristics of both compliance and resistance.

When surfing, they’re influenced by the changing curves and textures of the wave face, the level of inflation, and manipulation of internal pressure by rider’s hands/arms… carefully timed squeezing and releasing of front edges and corners.

In the blink of an eye, a modern surf mat’s active contact areas can go from fairly full and firm, to thin and supple

… the “magic towel”.

Dale maybe its just me but it seems like I havent seen a post from you for a while…

Im just glad to see your genius back!

16
Quote:

Flex (or compress), resist and recover are are the functions of mechanical energy storage devices, these dictate the amount of energy that can be stored. How do these apply here?

well douglas, its really quite simple…

what feels better?

jumping up and down on a hard floor…

or jumping up and down on a mattress?

energy conservation is the same with each,

but which one would you prefer doing?

the revolution is eminent…

Agreed Dave. My point is that energy storage and release is (or at least, should) be important. But there is no magical switch. All mechanisms that “magnify” energy in reality store energy and then focus it on release. My current thinking (I may well be wrong - wouldn’t be the first time) is that resistive flex is the way to achieve this in a surfboard. I think this can be a very tunable thing and that many parts of the board can play a role in this.

These are just my thoughts which I share in the hope of constructive dioscussion.

-doug

17

In Reply To m.

Can’t you see/hear those few of us who are scraping the stick figure with surfboard out in the desert in the sun patina baked iron rock. My muscles is so damn tired. We almost got it finished, I’m so proud. He stands about 8 miles high, check your coordinates, put your landing skids down and touch your craft down. Furrow a grand canyon deep into the red rock. Do us proud, something for the gods to view, another time and space another place and source. Close eyes and trust your instincts, let go of your preconceived designs and tribal chants. Nothing is better than something. The direction is forward from the center. The journey was within.

Doug, read - Chaos: Making a New Science by James Gleick

Of course you’re right! Wave form energy can be amplified. Crack a bull whip, the tip of that whip will speed past the sound barrier. Also a sound wave can be produced that cancels another sound wave, wow, what if a tree falls in the forest and a wise-ass makes a recording and then processes it and plays it back to cancel the sound of the next tree that falls. It’s active dude, we are the PARTICIPATORS, the determinate factors, the POSITIVE wave force that is fighting the good fight against those that seek to cancel us.

http://www.swaylocks.com/forum/gforum.cgi?post=151292;search_string=cell%20structure;guest=2620456#151292

http://www.swaylocks.com/forum/gforum.cgi?post=175268;search_string=cell%20structure;guest=2620456#175268

http://www.swaylocks.com/forum/gforum.cgi?post=211181;search_string=cell%20structure;guest=2620456#211181

http://www.swaylocks.com/forum/gforum.cgi?post=223945;search_string=cell%20structure;guest=2620456#223945

http://www.swaylocks.com/forum/gforum.cgi?post=211371;search_string=its%20;guest=2620456#211371

Prepare a microscope slide, I’m going in…

18

Think of all the energy you are using/creating while riding a wave. There must be times when you could afford to “sacrafice” lets say 10% and store it somehow(just dreaming here).

As an example how about a propellor and rubber band that uses your forward motion on the wave to twist the rubber band until it can’t twist anymore, then the rubber band lock to store the energy and the propellor freewheels until you put it in gear at which time the rubber band expends its stored energy by spinning the propellor and giving you a boost - like over some mushy flat spot?

If you run a fluid thru this wing you get “Dynamic Natural Propulsion”. You have to read the page.

http://www.rexresearch.com/carrcoan/carrcoan.htm

Another factor is that water is one of the most amazing substances/fluids and we may not know much about it at all!

When you look outside of surfing you may find that the “rules” that

most everyone have been following may be very limiting. Other areas may

have surged ahead in development and technology and we may be able to

apply some of the ideas, materials, ???

19

daddio,

Quote:

Doug, read - Chaos: Making a New Science by James Gleick

Of course you’re right! Wave form energy can be amplified. Crack a bull whip, the tip of that whip will speed past the sound barrier. Also a sound wave can be produced that cancels another sound wave, wow, what if a tree falls in the forest and a wise-ass makes a recording and then processes it and plays it back to cancel the sound of the next tree that falls. It’s active dude, we are the PARTICIPATORS, the determinate factors, the POSITIVE wave force that is fighting the good fight against those that seek to cancel us.

Energy is certinaly dynamic. But it can’t be created (certain strange nuclear reactions aside), last I heard. Simple physics. It can be focussed to “amplify” it, and that can seem like creation. All your examples are exactly that (physics 101).

Maybe I am just nit-picking. I think I’ll shut up - I am not here to fight.

-doug

20

you have to agree with doug here…i know i do…

its nice to dream but we do have physical laws

its not about creating or amplifying energy…its about transferring from one form to another form…the ones who most efficiently transfer it wins the game…

if you could harness 100% of gasoline’s energy and put it into motion we would be getting 100+mpg…geez wouldnt that be nice right about now huh?

energy transfer…learn it, live it