what is going on with APS3000?

Industry Talk
101

WOW!!!

have i been out of the loop …you know Miki , its kind of ironic , how you have the type who latch onto to creative people , like they have the goose that laid the golden egg , and when they think the goose can not lay another egg and every last drop of gold has been milked ,then its usefulness has passed , then what good are you ?

the surfing industry is very small , its a community , that will always protect the core…

its a shame that people will act out of greed or egotism , impulsive decisions always catch up with people …

Miki , your a real inteligent guy , I’ve been privy to some interesting developments and moves around other projects you have been involved in and all i can say is , you seriously impress me , sometimes when your backed into a corner , thats when your best comes out …

then ,there is that ever present , right time ,right place thing that always seems to pop up when you think all else has failed …

youve done your time , youve given , and those who are able to help have recognised that …

after all is said and done , your life as a whole , your product , your peace of mind and your place in the surfing community is even stronger than it was …

while those who acted without thinking of the consequences now have a way longer road ahead of them …

funny how things have a way of evening out …

regards

BERT

hey Midget , how are ya ?

long time …

102

Hi Bert,

WELCOME BACK!

regards,

Håvard

103

I feel very honored for what you say and I feel even more honored to be part of your first post after such a long time.

Thanks a lot and welcome back in the real world.

If you need a shoulder to lean on or a special “frog”, feel free to drop in …

104

Tell me another place where you can read two freaks like Bert and Miki on the same thread…

Thanks to both for sharing!

For you two, i know changes are hard but in your case can only be to better.

Keep on the good work and being inspiration!

Thanks.

Coque.

105

Hey Miki, you are around the corner from my shed, have you made enough money now, you *******. Has Warren dealt with you enough, or has the greed of you shaping machine ***** managed to ***** up on all of you. You ****** and all the rest of you mass produced ******, that confused yourselves with Gordon Merchant or Doug Warbrick, get some giant morgages, put yourselves in the spar and ****** drown and don’t get on any site and whinge about your finances, you had no right having anything to do with surfing, yours sincerely, John Harris.

*Edited by Coque

106

Mr Harrisj i’m sure you could share with us your feelings without insulting anyone.

I would like to read your comments if you try it again with better taste.

Thanks.

Sincerely,

Coque.
107

John, you have a name and that gives you a face. and yes, because of that you have a right for an opinion (in my view). you are invited into my shed and I will show you around, the best I can do but I would like you take my offer.

your opinion makes some sense and makes me think but I do not understand your anger as a man who lives on D’bah hill should feel blessed…

and by the way, I have done over 100 000 surfboards, so why you say I have nothing to do with this indsutry?>?

108

Coque - beautiful Moderating job. Everyone’s intent remains clear, but your calming & cleaning influence is strongly present. Thank you.

109

Hey you Benny, stick to the topic! :wink:

Thanks for not throwing rocks to the mods this time. This thread has some interesting info and i would like to watch it around for a while to be able to follow APS3000’s life at this new stage.

Thanks again Benny.

Coque.

110

Yep, the morning after, I probably should have a breathalyser on my computer.Probably would have been better if you scrubbed my whole reply, but now I have opened my mouth, I should say what’s on my mind. I have promised myself I would’nt get bitter about the shaping machines, I guess beer can do that, anyway I don’t like what they have done to the industry and Miki is one of the main culprits. I’ll cop my grieve for insulting people, but that does’nt change the fact of what’s gone down. There are many people in a small industry that don’t deserve to be there, for the simple reason that because it’s a cottage industry with a finite market, we did’nt need a way of mass producing boards and we did’nt need people to just , go right I’m a shaper now. Now that we’ve got them, it devalues all boards. The price of boards has’nt gone up in over ten years, design has stalled. An engineering back ground does’nt make a surfing background. There coming from everywhere and for the life of me I don’t know what makes it so attractive to them, Miki has probably done alright out of it, that’s done, good luck, I just did’nt like the giant suckup that was going on, like it was good that has come from it. I take no joy from offending people and I’m sorry if I did, JH.

111

Thanks a lot for your reply John.

Quote:

Probably would have been better if you scrubbed my whole reply

My intention was being not so destructive and to respect your right of writing what you think.

I can see your point of shaping machines having some (lots?) negative aspects, but i think they have some positive things also. Every time i think about it, i guess they’d find another way. Maybe teaching one hundred asians how to shape a couple models each year from a close tolerance blank isn’t so hard… and once the blank has the CI logo on it no one would search for imperfections.

I agree 100% with you that there’s so much people on this industry that doesn’t belong here… everywhere: shaping, selling 1 inch thick boards to 200 lbs guys, selling “surf clothes”, involved on surfing contest that dont even know what do they mean…

It’s sad, but it’s done, we have to deal with that and i think the same thing happened to almost everything, the only difference is that it all came too late to surfing so we thought it would never came, but now is here, and i think it’s here to stay. More and more boards are being shaped in asia and uneducated surfers (95%???) like better a bad surfboard with a JS sticker (JS, Webber, CI, you name it) than a nice, well shaped surfboard build by a great surfer/shaper/designer who’s been there from the seventies because he hasn’t been in the mags lately showing his quads and retro fishes.

Anyway, i think there’s still a place for good passionate shapers, and their job is not just to shape boards, but also educate the surfer on the beach with a Surftech under his arm so, next time, he’ll order a custom surfboard from a local shaper.

Now that the “revolution” is here, i think shaping machines can help the local shaper to fight with a superior weapon to the mass produced surfboards.

John, i also think that, for example, companies like FCS (who i think produce molded fins in Asia) are making almost imposible to make a living from custom fin making, and we would benefit a LOT of having a good ammount of Greenough like fin designers who would develope much better fins than what FCS is producing now a days. But again, we’re talking about business and economy, nothing to do with surfing, no matter how much they use the name of a great surfer from the 70’s to advertise a fin, all they want is hype to make money.

Coque.

112

Hey everyone. Regulate who can use the beautiful machines if they are so bad for u’s.

113

FWIW I think one of the things that sets miki’s machine apart from others is the fact that it’s designed to mass produce custom boards, not necessarily generic off-the-rack boards(although it can certainly do that too.)

regards,

Håvard

114

Hey Coque, that could almost be a touche, except that fibreglass fins are more in demand and harder to get. The few guys making them over here can’t do enough. On the educate the surftech guy, what would you suggest, walk up to him and say hi, I’m John, been shaping for 37 years, only do it with a planer and a saw, why don’t you dissregard everything you’ve been tricked into believing and get one of my boards, or possibly embark on a marketing plan. The only problem with that one and I’ve tried it, when you’re a small guy and you lash out, say 1 or 2 grand, that by the way has never been worth it, you come across like the hard sell. e.g. Billabong or such could do a double page black add with a little logo in the corner, would look pretty cool, the temptation for the little guy and you gotta remember that being a good shaper does’nt nescessarily mean you are any good at marketing, is that it will come accross hard sell, you might just try a bit too hard, cause in reality your desperate. The thing about these guys doing the big numbers over here is this, they have tried to increase their profits by , firstly having inferior workers, e.g. work for the dole guys and then after that nearly sent them all to wall , they have just resorted to paying less. I would think a good principle of business would be , if you want more profit, make a supieror product and get the extra at the end, the customer, not your workers, they are the jewels in your crown. Guys working on the roads over here are getting heaps more than the guys making your so called top flight boards. The guys running these shows, the’re younger than me and I would be proud of them except the’re so ruthless and only interested in taking over the world at any cost, and especially if they can put other shapers in the gutter. I thank you again for pulling up my first mail, although looking at it again, you could have left some more things in, just to get the gist, because nothing about shaping machines will ever change my mind, by the way I had 30 or so boards done by Miki’s own machine and they were all f;ck’d, I’ll say more about that if nescessary. One more thing can you please ease up on this 70’s thing, while I’m happy to come from that era, I’m still going alright, my last wave at Ulu’s 2 weeks ago was easily in my top ten waves over 30 years there and I did get a cover in 02or 3, cheers JH

115

Ask the big name shapers what they think.

Those who have too many customers and not enough time to produce the boards that have been ordered, have a different view on machines. For these guys the APS3000 has been a god send as they still have the ability to produce their individual designs using the APS3000 “Free” software and have complete control of the final shape. The beauty of the APS3000 system is the fact that every board that comes off it is an individual and unique design. It is not a machine that is designed to produce K-MART specials.

There is room for all types, hand shapers and machine shapers. Regarding MIKI’s right to be a part of this community, think again, he has every right to be included. He has been working on shaping apparatus since 1980 from templates for the Hand Shapers and various types of weird and wonderful shaping machines through to the release of the APS3000, a product of long term development. Miki had many machine ideas prior to the APS3000 that he was not happy with and refused to release them in to the industry because they were not right for the industry and who paid for all these development costs? Yep MIKI. So if you want to know where a lot of the money he has made has gone, now you know. This is another reason why we as a community should back Miki’s APS3000 project and “NOT SUPPORT” the people that have taken his long thought out design. Boycot them, they are not worth feeding.

Technology is something that we have to deal with in life, you either join in and enjoy the benefits, or you stay angry as other people move ahead of you, that is your choice. Why don’t you take Miki up on his offer? I must admit when I first came across the APS3000 I was a bit negative but Miki invited me to his factory to have a look which allowed him to explain the system to me properly, now I am a convert. Take a design with you and a blank and ask Miki to shape it for you, he may, he may not but at least by going there you will be making your mind up based on all of the facts, not just the one sided view you have now. Don’t get me wrong, I respect your one sided view but it is unfair to criticize a product until you have all of the facts.

Regards

Scott

116

Hi Scottyboy -

Agreed.

I have two friends who shape. Both are relatively low volume underground shapers. You might recognize their names but that’s not the point.

They have both been approached with large orders. At least larger than they’ve ever dealt with. Of course, both orders come with deadlines.

So… here they are, looking for a break of sorts and it finally lands right in their lap. Only problem is, neither guy can hope to hand make their product in the numbers required and still meet the deadlines.

As far as I know, one of the guys is getting machined preshapes at 30 bucks a pop and hopes the glasser can keep up. The other guy will definitely be scrambling.

When you start looking at volume on a deadline, it seems that machines or offshore factories may be the only way out?

117
Quote:

I have two friends who shape. Both are relatively low volume underground shapers…Only problem is, neither guy can hope to hand make their product in the numbers required and still meet the deadlines

Gotta love that…business offer to people on the reputation of their handmade items and give them pricing and deadline requirements that won’t allow them to be handcrafted…the retail will probably be more than they guys get for the handcrafted work, too.

118

Hey Scott, I don’t have to ask the big name shapers what they think, it’s obvious. I have been in Miki’s shed and seen the machines at work. I had about 30 boards done, I did’nt get charged for about 12 of them cause they were wrong in the extreme. I have a board and it goes good a 6’7" that I sort of reshaped from one that was wrong. I have never had a deck collapse before this one and I would have had at least a 1000 boards, no problem except, my aboriginal mate spent a day and a half doing a hand painting on it, bummer. Listen, the machines are here and good luck to all involved, there’s nothing anyone can do about it, I had gotten way over it, I was pissed and I saw all kinds of sucking up going on and I foolishly opened my mouth, you know what they say about beer, truth serom. It does’nt matter life goes on, I just don’t like them and I would have liked to see how the industry would have gone without them, I think pretty much the same guys would have risen, probably made as much money and dragged everyone along with them for the good of the industry. JH

119

im personally not into mass production of surfboards

i like uncrowded breaks with hardcore locals

i liked kirra

and being terrified when i was a grom of the burleigh locals

i not big on label clothing ( i remember when we bought billabong shorts cuz thery were the only grey school shorts that wouldnt fall apart if you were surfing in them everyday before and after school )

i dont know miki personally so id never sledge him or his project

but i can see why people would be upset with the whole machine shape buzz

hey JH

i dont think alcohol is a truth serum

i think that as humans, many random thoughts cross our minds.

we think of things all the time that wouldnt be appropriate to say or do in a harmonious society.

just because we think of something it doesnt have to define us as humans

nor is it necessarily the “truth”

nor is it necessarily our “true will”

i think all alcohol does is stop us from thinking about the repercussions before we speak.

and basically puts us in a position where we blurt out our random thoughts uncontrollably

thats why people have regrets when theve done or said the wrong thing when there drunk

120

I want to reply to this debate over machining or hand shaping. hand shaping is shaping without a machine planer. APS3000 is a tool just like a surform or a skill1000, when power planers came about i was to young to know, but did everyone resist them and say that there was no soul. or did they embrace the new tool that made it easy to shape a board from start to finish. i think APS3000 is a tool to shape boards. the shapers now that use this machine and have not shaped thousands of boards by hand are no different than the shapers who started with a skill1000 and not a surform. I mean no disrespect to hand shapers from any decade, but there are new tools now and you should charge more for a true hand shape with a surform.

                                                natas