what is going on with APS3000?

Industry Talk
121

“hand shaping is shaping without a machine planer. APS3000 is a tool just like a surform or a skill1000,”

i think that statement needs a little refining… if you shape a board with your templates and a planer yourself… its your shape. if someone else uses your templates and planer its not your shape anymore…

if you design your own board shape on aps3000 and have it cut and then you finish it… its your shape.(just like learning to use a planer, you will need to do more than 30 to get close to what you did by hand for years). if you give someone your board and they copy its curves and design it, then cut on aps3000 and give it back to you to finish its no longer what you would shape…

122

what i am saying is copying a board is not my point. if you design a board from scratch with APS3000 then cut it, you will figure out what your design turns into when it is not on the screen. after that the boards come out in your own style, copying is not what the custom design program is about. its about refining your designs into your own vision, that is why i think it is a shaping tool.

                         natas
123

exactly my point natas. i refer to shapers who hand a board over to someone else to copy/create thier files on aps3000 or shape 3d or whatever… then they complain its not the same as thiers.

a shaper is only as good as the last shape he did with whatever tools he used…

124

…is not like you say

cause a shaper is a guy who DO the shape with his arms

in a machined shape, the shaper is the machine

so is a shame in my opinion to sign by hand those shapes and earn big money

because the guy do not sweat for that money

only wants money

so, machines are here to stay

BUT better if we dont have another mass produced vehicle

I mean, what happend if one or more big name shapers have too much work, that they do not take all the orders; well, more work for other shapers

so all we have work and some money and time

125

O T, i guess, but let me dive in (as a nobody who knows very little about anything:)

Let’s not assume that you put a board on a scanner and then a perfect copy magically appears out the end of the production line. The scanner sees all the defects (non-symmetry, dimples, etc.). Someone has to decide which to accept and which to reject - now is it the left or the right rail that’s correct (there is 1/16" difference, after all).

Then somebody takes the scanned numbers into software and tries to get the algorithms to match the real flows using a few cross sections of the board. Do you let the concave flow naturally into vee (because the software will do it well) or do you force the transition, as in the real board (is it a secret component of performance or was that a mistake when the real board was hand copied from the original model?)

Then you get a cut blank, scrub it and check for variances and decide what to do with them

etc etc

There’s more art to using computer software than hand shapers would like to admit. It ain’t easy 1-2-3

The shaper should be involved in all these decisions otherwise they’re just subcontracting shaping to someone else - a million 1st, 2nd or 3rd world apprentices or craftsmen doing it by hand or high-tech machines - it’s the same thing. You the expert, you want good product - you gotta manage the process.

Maybe the debate needs to be on doing it yourself versus subcontracting. Machines or people - it’s the same principle

126

I’m with you Mate, too much work, share with another shaper or teach a kid, before the art is lost. As far as the guys doing their own designing and cutting , good for you, that is’nt what’s happening normally, it’s just let’s go, how many do you want.As for truth serum, I don’t regret it, cause has any one had a shot at these guys and let’s face it, it takes peoples work. As for Miki not being entitled to be in the industry, it’s a free world, good on him. I don’t suppose the story I heard today[from one of his workers] that he has never surfed has any bearing, and if that is the case, he has done it purely for money. JH.

127
Quote:

I don’t suppose the story I heard today[from one of his workers] that he has never surfed has any bearing, and if that is the case, he has done it purely for money. JH.

Interesting fact #1. Miki was sitting on Tavarua Island before there was a surf camp.

Interesting fact #2. Miki was a die hard sail boarder. Surfing and sailing all around the world. He has had a passion for board design and construction since he was a teenager. Board design and construction can cross from surfing to sail boarding and back the other way.

I think your definition of a surfer needs to be re-explored.

My dad grew up paddling/surfing outrigger canoes and body surfing on Oahu in the 1930’s/1940’s, but never rode a surfboard. You tell him he’s not a surfer and he’ll laugh his head off. By your definition I would be smart to ignore any advice in regards to my business and responsibility to surf culture that he gives.

Surf culture and the industry are shaped by those who are ocean minded, and who actually enjoy and respect the lifestyle it creates. Not always “surfers” by your definition. Does ones ability as a surfer define how much or how little they are allowed to contribute and or make a living? I had a similar attitude when I was a 13 year old punk kid thinking every person who didn’t start as young as 10 or wasn’t as good as me was a kook. But then I grew up and realized there is allot more to it.

I have had many long discussions about the industry and surf culture with Miki, from which I have gained a mountain of respect for him. He cares more about the surfing culture, preservation of the custom surfboard industry and the craftsmen that came before than most “surfers”. He could have cashed out years ago and retired by selling his machining technology to someone else, or better yet used his mind in a more lucrative industry. If you look at the big picture of the road he has taken you would see a great deal of responsibility and care in who he sells a machine to. He turns people down who have money in hand because someone smaller already expressed interest in the same area and is figuring out there finances. I think your perception to people here “sucking up” is way off. It’s more in line with those of us surfers (22 years surfing) who have interacted with Miki and see who he is as a person, that is why he has support. If he was an asshole or a greedy bastard this thread would have been dead after the first three posts.

The APS3000 is a tool just like your plainer. It’s useless unless you know what you are creating.

Some monkeys were afraid of the others who used grass to get at the ants. But that was evolution…

Regards,

Chris

128

hey John …

interesting perspective …

when you design a board , where do you draw inspiration from ??

is it the surfs you had ?, thinking about how you board felt as you snapped under the lip because you tuned your fin sett and outline for the ultimate hook , , or busted the tail out ,on a full frontal reo because you built plenty of edge into your tail plus your rocker and outline meant the tail had to fully bust out to complete the turn , or the drift you got as you dropped into a hollow wave on the nose , yet were still able to control it because you had tuned your rail to stick to the face on a critical drop ??? combine that experience with customer feedback …

do you think someone who has never surfed , could possibly understand the nuances of design and how to customise a board for each individual and his , tastes , size , stance , ability , style , contruction method and wave preference ???

regardless of whether you stand in your shaping bay , getting covered in foam dust and sweating like a pig or sit down on Dbah headland and watch the surfers ripping it up and draw inspiration from the curves in the wave and the moves being pulled while your sitting there on your lap top designing a custom board, in both cases a good board is only generated by a competant designer …

anyone can slap out the same thing as everyone else copy the latest generic design and call them selves a shaper , but do they understand design like someone who has years of experience surfing and shaping/designing ??

that is your strength John …

mention your name and you get comments like "yea , that guys knows what hes doing "…

the control of over the finest detail is what the machine and design programs has done for design and understanding of design …

i presume you are computer literate as you are on this site …

a lap top for a little as 800 bucks , the free downloadable version of the APS design program , and you could be down at Dbah tuning a design while watching one of your customers surf at the same time …

email the file to miki , then go pick it up when its ready …

was there an issue with who designed it ?

is it not still one of your creations ??

how much easier to fine tune a subtle change when your customer wants his next board ??

you swapped your pencil, templates and planer for a mouse …

same guy behind the concepts and design …

take the tech and make it work for what you do best , i really dont think you will regret it …

then once you find that your time attatched to the shaping bay has been reduced and you can design and do indo trips at the same time , i am sure your opinion of miki will have changed …

regards

BERT

129

nicely put bert… you made sense of what i was trying to get across

130

A planer is only as good as the person operating it. Likewise with a shaping program like Shape3D or APS3000. Or any other system for that matter. A machine like an APS3000 can only do what it’s told, so just because you know how to use a mouse does not a good shaper make. Personally I think CNC is brilliant for experimenting, especially if your a novice shaper. Just my two cents worth.

131

hey bert

what you say is all great in the ideal world

and if thats mikis vision then im all for it!

but the reality is that shaping machines are generally used for mass production

for the bigger guys so they can reduce overheads and increase output

the bottom line for bigger manufacturers is money.

even if JH uses mikis shop in the way you describe

hes still got mass produced boards from one end of coolangatta to the other to try and compete with.

not to mention that with a bit of creative self promotion ,and some cash.

a nobody of limited skill with a ruler and planer could easily pass themselves off to gullible consumers

as the next greatest thing.

just by scanning boards into aps3000 and getting them cut

132

Hello Mate, anwser one question for me if you could . Do you have one of these machines, make it two, do you use one. Otherwise why do you want to jump on the band wagon of sticking up for poor old Miki. When I talk about taking other peoples work, I’m talking about, deaset survival, not your paper work profit, which I’m sure you can do [paperwork] on a computer too. Oh shit, he was sitting on the beach at, who gives a f’'k, has he ever surfed? Cause he was a champion still water sailboarder in Germany, strech that how ever much you want. I dig this shit, show me what you have, I did’nt say Miki had’nt surfed, it was one of his workers, and you know what I’ve been talking to some of his other ones this arvo.JH.

133

On ya Nels, H.

134

Hey and on you too Silly, these guys come across like it’s so pure, and get on this program, in reality, and Miki said he did 100,00 boards, I’ve hand shaped about 20,000, sounds like I hav’nt done much at all, I have a whole lot stored, fins etc, mass destruction, get on with it boys, H.

135

Feral dave !!! would you call yourself a mass production house ??

when i drive past your shop , every board in the rack is different and im sure you do loads of customs to …

the machine has benifits for both large and small producers …

anyone who has carved out a reputation as a surfer/designer/shaper , surely is past having to find gullible consumers …

yes the machine will let crew into the surfboard industry who years ago, because of having two left hands would never of had a chance , but is that any different to people who used ghost shapers and spruked there design skills to the next gullible consumer , crew who used shameless self promotion while others toiled in the background with the real design skills to make it happen ?

i cant believe anyone can be so blind as to not take advantage of an easier , more accurate way of doing things …

large or small …

if you wanna do things the way they have been getting done for the last 30 years , thats fine , but just except that the surf industry will continue to evolve , it will evolve for the love and for the money …

it always has ,regardless of the tools being used …

like i said , you can scan in the latest thing , copy the latest generic wonder design , but it wont suit everyone , so those with the custom skills and understanding of design will always have an advantage …

if youve shaped for 30 years and your not recognised for your ability to do a good custom , then maybe you chose the wrong career ???

its these guys who the machine is replacing , the ghost machines of yesterday …

the up front guys are still the same …

you cant kill the children of the evolution …

regards

BERT

136
Quote:

yes the machine will let crew into the surfboard industry who years ago, because of having two left hands would never of had a chance , but is that any different to people who used ghost shapers and spruked there design skills to the next gullible consumer , crew who used shameless self promotion while others toiled in the background with the real design skills to make it happen ?

no not much difference from an ethical perspective.

Quote:

like i said , you can scan in the latest thing , copy the latest generic wonder design , but it wont suit everyone , so those with the custom skills and understanding of design will always have an advantage …

thats a good point

not to mention “customer skills”

the problem is bert

machine made copies start to become status quo

and eventually as things become more competitive

quality inevitably goes down

and your left with a standard 20 years on and no one knows any better

im not knocking technology

just how its applied

historically if board building follows the path of some other consumable products

it could go one way it could go the other!

look at "micheal Hill or any of those jewellery chains

huge margins and crap quality

most of there stock is made off shore in mass production environments.

i would say that someone that buys from this type of store is getting ripped off

but at the moment its accepted as status quo, cuz the consumer doesnt know any better

a jewellery retailer makes up to 50% on a diamond sale

maybe 2 grand on a carat sale

yet the ring its set in is crap

hollow underneath ,badly finished and substandard casting just to save 20 dollars in gold

why?

because of volume

if theres a thousand units

that a hell of a lot of money

any business that concentrates on high volume

will always try and cut costs on each unit to increase profit

okay

some guy in the jewellery industry says heres the latest thing

its a wax printer

it prints a wax ring in 3d and then its cast using the lost wax process

any design (done in cad) you want with any detail.

theoretically it will eventually put me out of a job

however as you suggested about board designers

what it cant do is “have taste”

know what a “woman wants”

make a ring that day or overnight

repair a ring

etc etc

the small discerning market that requires these sort of services is limited however

so eventually more and more manufacturers will feel the pinch

its not right or wrong

it just is

but it doesnt mean i have to like it

Quote:

if youve shaped for 30 years and your not recognised for your ability to do a good custom , then maybe you chose the wrong career ???

or maybe your just not very good at selling yourself and recognition actually has little bearing on your ability as a craftsman

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One more thing can you please ease up on this 70’s thing, while I’m happy to come from that era, I’m still going alright, my last wave at Ulu’s 2 weeks ago was easily in my top ten waves over 30 years there and I did get a cover in 02or 3

Sorry John, i didn’t want to mean that you belong to the 70’s by any mean. My point was that you have been doing R&D first hand for four decades with success.

Sincerely, i can see every one of your points, and i agree with most of them, but i’m sorry because i took this thread away from it’s topic: “What is going on with APS3000”.

The truth is shaping machines came to stay and like Bert said: you can take advantage by using them, o you can choose not to use them and explain to your customers that you charge an extra because your surfboards are built by John Harris, not by a machine, so you can back every shape that comes out of your shop, because you’ve seen it born and grow.

I think there’s a place to both hand shaped and machine shaped boards and there’re customers for both, the hard thing it’s having to deal with low cost surfboards built using cheap labor, but that’s another history.

Thanks again for your post, it brings a different/interesting point of view.

Coque.

138

so if you use a machine or you don’t, who cares, because bottom line is if your shaping designs are good people will love your boards, the mass production is what it is, make epic boards with what ever tools you want and if people like them they will buy them, machines wont have a chance in the custom surfboard market if the boards dont work, if they work people will buy them, OH YEAH! seems like the people who don’t like miki’s machine always have political reasons hidden under the surface. right JH.

                 natas
140

OK

Mr. blank brain…

death strikes again

with a semi-truth:

all the machines did was to slowly pare down the surf INDUSTRY’S dirty secret… the ghost shaper

the thousands of unheralded apprentice ghost shaping contract workers who’s grunt work was later swabbed with a couple strokes of screen inorder to get the big name signature or even facsimilie signature placed on the foam.

only problem is no one figured out the glassing part of the problem which created just another log jam further downstream in a function where the bodies(and interest) were even less in number.

Many glassers, sanders and floor sweepers will understand this but Shapers are an interesting breed…

In days of the BM (before machining) they’d blame the blank maker for twisted, soft or too hard blanks, the glassers for taking too long, the sander for ruining the edge and the floor sweep for getting in the way and not keeping things in the “proper place”. (funny in that they never publically chastised their ghost shapers for ruining the shape)

Today in the AM (after machining) they blame the software for being to difficult to use or the machine and machine operator for ruining the shape with the cut, and then it’s back to the glasser, sander and shop sweep again.

Only now the glassers are even more backed up and behind schedule.

So some glass shops have to give up quality inorder to make deadlines and eventually these high volumes causes everyone to suffer even the retailer who can’t get product as promised or the end user whose board self destructs in 6 months…

Because volume and quality just seem to mix like oil and vinegar when the cost of the end product drives sales.

its the same old same old…

Tudor Knights josting(sp?) at the marketplace for the hands of their fair maidens…

in the end death takes no prisoners…