I’ve been trying to get in touch with Ned or any of the guys over there and the phone is coming up “disconnected or not in service”
Anybody know what’s up?
…another one bites the dust?
Maybe.
A business can’t generate biz if they can’t be contacted. Business 101. Ned’s a great guy, and everyone I interacted with a couple years ago were fine people. Unfortunately, there were some problems with the foam; 1 of 3 longboard blanks I had blew heavily in the front third on the bottom of the nose. I applied a cheater coat of resin before glassing…to no avail.
I built some boards for the East Coast and they were denting easily while I was glassing them and yellowed before ever getting outside exposure. I’ve rec’d feedback on another longboard I made for a longtime customer and although he loves his ‘magic’ board, he mentioned it got quite a few small dents on the bottom. The guy knows how to handle surfboards.
Homeblown US is an extension in some size, shape and form from the U.K. operation, and associated in some sense to “The Eden Project”. I commend their dedication to exploring green alternatives to board building, but it appears the challenges have been formidable.
To be quite honest, after my experiences using the Homeblown MDI foam, I switched to Ice 9’s Cane with mixed results until they brought on Harold Walker, formerly of Walker Foam. This resulted in a formulation they dedicated to Harold aptly named “Mowses” which was poured thru their high tech system. The result has been excellent, and this is the polyurethane foam I use as my primary PU supply source.
The debate whether MDI (Methyl Phenol Di Isocynate) is ‘greener’ than TDI (Toulene Di Isocynate) still continues, and there are at least several suppliers of MDI (vegetable based polyols) that I know of. The now defunct Clark Foam was a TDI based foam as is Walker’s “Mowses” formula. Walker has achieved some impressive results with a tweaked polyol expressly for the purpose of surfboard shaping and durability. The cells are fine, but the net weight achieved is light.
The finer cell size runs counter to conventional thinking, as it was a long held notion that the only way to achieve lighter polyurethane foam formulations for surfboard blanks was to increase cell size, thereby reducing the thickness of cell walls and overall material in the blank. More air (like EPS foams) meant a lighter product, but the challenge with this approach rendered such fixed cell lighter densities prone to crushing.
Walker has been able to go back to the drawing board and do something different. Personally I was pleasantly surprised at the strength to weight ratio I achieved on a typical high performance board glassed with a 4 oz. bottom, 4/4 deck & speed coated finish. I built the board in 2 days start to finish using Iso/Ortho blended Silmar UV resin and it went to Indo for 3 weeks of everyday use thereafter. The board wasn’t dented upon return even though it had been surfed in up to double overhead surf.
Perhps Homeblown is doing some rethinking for 2009. Since this is a worldwide site, maybe someone out there has insight as to what’s going on with Homeblown USA?
[/url][/url]I can’t tell you what’s going on with Homeblown but, I wanted to chime in and set the record straight on a couple of the things you mentioned and pose a couple questions of my own…[/url]
Polyurethane foam is created by a Thermoset Chemical Reaction caused by 2 proportioned components coming in contact with each other. Component A = Isocyanate; there are 2 most commonly used ‘flavors’ of “Iso†(TDI & MDI). Iso’s are not Bio based. In fact, just the opposite, they are synthetic materials that are derived in very much the same way your gasoline is formulated. I.O.W. it’s not really the most ‘eco friendly’ of raw materials. MDI tends to be the lesser of two evils when compared with TDI but let’s put it this way, if you wanted to open up a ISOCYANATE warehouse in your neighborhood don’t plan on your local Fire Department welcoming you with open arms- regardless if you tell them you don’t use TDI.
Component B = Polyol; This Polyol component is the one that some chemical suppliers have endeavored to use ‘Bio’ based materials as a base ingredient. Whether you use a ‘Bio’ based polyol or not, you still must use an Iso.
While I am not intimately familiar with all Foam Blowing company’s formulas, I can say with a reasonable amount of certainty that those who are blowing Surfboard Blanks use significantly more Iso than poly (also known as ‘the index’ or ‘mix ratio’) in their formulas. That being said, even if you can substitute a ‘Bio Based Polyol’, while this makes the Tree Huggers jump up and down with Glee, the reality is the total impact of this change is relatively minimal.
OK, so I know I sound like a ‘Wet Blanket’ concerning the whole ‘Eco Friendly’ concept; au contraire, actually we have recently partnered with the guys from resurf.org (www.resurf.org) to develop a new eco friendly recycled foam product which will be launched later this month.
I guess what I am ultimately getting at here is that “Deadshaper†pretty much nailed it when he posted his comments regarding an interest in an‘eco friendly’ product but that the performance of that product could (and ultimately was) be a ‘deal breaker’ . On one hand it seems that the Surfing Community wants to see ‘Eco Friendly’ solutions but then on the other hand, if they don’t perform as well or better then…. “C-Yaâ€- (hence “another one bites the dustâ€).
It’s kinda like saying, I want a car that has the power of a Ferrari but the gas mileage of a Prius for the cost of a Hyundai and “oh, can I get that delivered tomorrow?†OK, so that analogy might be a tad bit extreme but I think you get my point.
Any kind of revolutionary breakthrough takes time. Research and Development can soak up countless hours (& $$$). And in the case of Surfboard Blanks, it requires the patience and loyalty of a not only a paying customer base but also Dudes who will take the time to shape and surf and destroy and reshape and resurf, etc to find a way to make it work.
IMHO, the shaping community doesn’t seem to be that patient. If you blow 6000 perfect blanks and then 10 bad ones go out the door (for whatever reason) you reputation is toast (unless of course if you were lucky enough to be a Clark Foam).
Here’s another of my musings… A finished 6’ whatever†performance board weighs approx 5 Lbs right? Give or take? Now, we all know that of that 5 Lbs ½ of it (or 2.5lbs) is foam. The OTHER half is that NASTY Polyester Styrene Monomer and Glass cloth. I’m just wondering why everyone leans on the foam guys for ‘eco friendly solutions? Has anyone been looking for some kind of alternative to Polyester? And I don’t mean Epoxy either because Epoxy is some of the worst “bad actors†in the chemical biz. Where is the lightweight, super strong, non-ozone depleting and, of course, inexpensive laminating resin solution?
Bottom line here Fellas is let’s just call a spade a “spadeâ€. If Eco Friendly was really the primary concern, there would be more dudes riding boards made out of recycled cardboard or coconut husks or old copy machine toner cartridges lashed together with those plastic thingies that hold your 6 packs together. But we know that’s not the case. Surfing is a sport where performance is key. And to achieve the type of performance that everyone wants takes ‘Jet Fuel’ not ‘Sugar Water’.
The day the shapers and the riders start saying, I am willing to make some compromises in my expectations is the TRUE dawn of the era of a development of an ‘Eco Friendly’ Board. It’s easy to “talk the talk” but who (and when) is REALLY willing to “walk the walk”?
Just my $.02
try contacting Tris at homeblown uk (www.homeblown.co.uk)
Homeblown US is a franchise from the UK company so Tris’ll be able to tell you what’s going on I’d have thought. I’ve got to pop in there next week so will try and find out.
It seems a growing number of UK guys are into homeblown foam so I wonder if there’s a difference in the end product being turned out. I’ve done a few bio, and know a few pro’s who like homeblown foam.
I’m with Dead Shaper on the MDI blanks. Every board that I made with MDI was a nightmare. Shrinkage, Yellowing, Pukas, Heavey? Plus is it really Bio?
Marketing Hype to the Max! Lost a few customers because of it.
I’ve done a few bio, and know a few pro’s who like homeblown foam.
Can you qualify that statement?
Who are the Pro’s your talking about and what are their ratings? WCT or WQS?
The Pro’s I know will not ride a so called BIO foam board because they are yellow and heavy!
It’s hard to get them to ride anything but TDI period!
I can’t beleive this is even being mentioned 3 years later?
Where have we returned? TDI.
EPS is a different subject so we are talking about TDI vs MDI!
Ho…appreciate your insight as I know you are active in the industry.
I agree with your statement about the general surfing public unfairly leaning on the blank manufacturers due to the current popular Gore-inspired trend to embrace all things green. I’m sure you catch my subtext on that issue. I’m a bit more of a realist on the matter of ecology and how it relates to surfboard manufacturing.
Surfboards are still, for the most part, PLASTIC. Plastics are man made and not a real common trait in Mother Nature…at least for the sake of this conversation. True there are examples of plastics (the ability to take a material and form it…like cement) in nature but lets stay on task here.
So we have a yin and yang here, so to speak…or speciafically ideology and reality.
I feel the need to highlight your statement “epoxy…bad actors” a bit, as there are many different epoxies that rang from deadly to friendly. In contast, I don’t think the current formulations of polyesters can quite make that same claim. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe it is the styrene monomer that gives polyesters its distinctive smell while causing cancer in rats and a few homosapiens? Epoxy doesn’t contain styrene, which is good as it would melt EPS if it did?
The claim that ALL epoxies are skin irritants and/or cause skin sensitizing or an intolerance to seems to occur when a solvent has been introduced into the equation and thereby transports the epoxy residual into the bloodstream. Otherwise you have epoxy users cleaning themselves with Gojo type soap and water or vinegar in some cases.
Epoxy for the most part, seems to be non issue for flammability; at least from the fireman I know anddealt with over the years. Without a need for acetone in an epoxy exclusive factor setup, the agencies I have dealt with view the operation completely different from a ‘regular’ polyester surfboard production shop. The VOC level is somewhere between 1/50t to 1/25th less using epoxy versus polyester resins.
I can’t quite go along with my counterparts, that EPS is any ‘greener’ than TDI or MDI foam. Pentane is an oil by product and used in the production of expandable polystyrene. While it is true that EPS i recyclable, this doesn’t excuse it for other less-han-green contributions it makes while being produced.
On the positive side, EPS/epoxy surfboards net a very impressive strength to weigh ratio and are an excellent alternative to conventional methods. I doubt that sandwiched construction involving PVC foams such as Komatex, Sintra or Divinycell can be excused from such similar L-T-Green contributions as well.
I prefer to not to bang my head against the wall trying to reinvent the wheel, and when someone comes up with a better proposition, I’ll be more than happy to take a look. Until then my mortgage banker thanks me for mailing my check on time.
Hey guys listen…I was not meaning to start a war over “eco vs non-eco”
For the record…There is no such thing as an “eco-friendly surfboard” period.
I know this.
I am however in R&D trying to come up with high performance shortboards that are as “environmentally RESPONSIBLE” as is possible with the technology available today. And that’s just “MY thing”. That’s all.
There is a reason the old standards are “standards”…because they work and work well.
I don’t look down on, or think less of guys that make boards with the old standards.
As a matter of fact, I HIGHLY respect most of you and look to you for guidance and support a great deal of the time.
I would hope that you guys wouldn’t look down on me for trying to do something new.
I’m just trying to do something different…some different materials…a little different shape here and there.
I’m not an “environmentalist”…I don’t drive a hybrid…I don’t have solar panels…I just want to make some surfboards and do it with a little twist.
I hate the term “eco-friendly” which is why for the purposes of Synergy we adopted the term “environmentally responsible”
It is a far more accurate term.
The problem is, it’s a friggin mouthfull!
All I’m sayin is…cut me some slack would ya?
All you guys ROCK!
Mahalo
ST…don’t misunderstand Ho or Me…we are on friendly terms…mutual respect. He does a great job at what he does (foam manufacurer). I appreciate his knoledge as he does mine…no haters, and no wars here.
As far as environmentally friendly, yes…we are all on the same page. Things like dumping acetone with residual acetone, or washing paint down your sewer system…stuff like that should be done responsibly. Flourescent bulbs is the easiest gesture to make. LED Xmas lights are big power savers…and so on.
I have solar heating for my pool, so maybe I get to score one point in the green department. Personally I’d lke to have a solr water heater. As it stands I have a system on a timer that heats all the plumbing when I need it thereby saving running water for long periods on cold mornings. I do my best against ‘phantom’ electrical useage by using surge suppressors.
If ALL of us practiced a few good habits, the cumulative effect would be HUGE.
Waste often times equates to $ spent unecessarily. Much of my surfboard building habits are dictated by a philosophy I often communicate on Sway’s as ‘maximizing with the minimum’.
Happy New Year…get ready for the ride.
“I prefer to not to bang my head against the wall trying to reinvent the wheel, and when someone comes up with a better proposition, I’ll be more than happy to take a look.”
Thanks DS
Hey! Who knows…Maybe I’ll be able to come up with a better “proposition”. (-;
Until then I look forward to your guidance and suggestions along my path.
Mahalo
…feel The Force Jedi 
Todd:
Go for it. Work your tail off finding the Environmentally Responsible method for building surfboards. I tried once and it cost me so much money!
I’ll let others experiment. I found what people say and what actually is true are 2 different things. Not that people are lying or intentionally deceiving others.
It’s more theoretical experimentation where the board builders become the guinea pigs!
Just let me know what works?
I’m always open to ideals. Just don’t give me the hype on MDI because it’s a mess!
I love your energy. Put it in a bottle and sell it and you’ll be rich!
Wow- some really informed and intelligent responses!
Dead- actually the issue with Epoxies (and MOST thermosets for that matter) isn’t really the resin component that presents a problem (save the flammability issue of styrene) but, rather the ‘activator’ and catalysts. Usually these are ‘amines’ (corrosive) or heavy metals (reactive) and these are the real ‘bad Actors’. If you check the MSDS on the activator component of the epoxies to which you refer, I think you’ll find some nasty stuff. I’m sure there are “safer†chemistries available but I am not aware of any that are able to avoid using any of these basic building blocks.
IMO it doesn’t matter which Thermoset plastic technology you use- all them require the use of some kind of ‘unstable’ chemical which we need to help us change liquid to solid. They all have their pros and cons and IMO if you follow safety protocols you’ll be fine.
As a side note, we have all but eliminated the use of solvents in our operation. I think this is our attempt at ‘practicing a few good habits’
I AGREE 100% with your comments to ST. No Hate, No War- mutual respect. I didn’t mean to diminish or denigrate ANYONE’s attempt to try and do it better or more ‘environmentally responsible’. In fact, I applaud it. It is by having conversations like these where we look at not only the technology available but also the political environment in which we operate that we can work together to move in the right direction. …. Meanwhile my banker wants his mortgage payment as well 
Hey MW
I’m working on it.
One thing nobody will ever get from me is hype. I believe in education.
I get educated every time I log on to Sways. I get it from talking to guys like you. I get it from failing miserably.
I have some ideas, I have some theories, I have a goal, and I have a never ending respect for ALL those who have come before me.(well…maybe not all…but almost)
I consider myself extremely fortunate because I have the experience of all you guys to draw upon.
But I will follow my path…maybe I will crash and burn…maybe I’ll change the world(metaphorically speaking of course)
I’ll find out one way or the other, and you guys will get to watch the comedy unfold.
Just try not to laugh at me too hard.
Mahalo
Starting another thread would be a good idea. Better to be “straight -up” in your self promotion, rather than boring others with a post that isn’t related to the topic. My question to you would be : Do you know what’s up with Homeblown?
When Walker closed down his shop Homeblown picked up six of Walkers molds (10-8, 8-10, 7-11, 7-2, 6-9 and 6-4). About a month ago Homeblown dropped the Walker molds off at Ice-Nine. The Homeblown driver that dropped off the Walker molds indicated that they were still blowing foam in their remaining molds but I can’t confirm this for sure.
Thanks LT
Hopefully I will be able to get clarification today.
they are supposed to be back from “vacation” as of today.
Mahalo
Hope there still in business! The HB crew are good guys and actual shapers. There’s only a few foam companies run by real shapers. During these hard times we all need to stick together.
Shapers know what shapers want. Generally. The flipside is Gordan “Grubby” Clark was not a shaper. I don’t want to turn this thread into a rant on Grubby’s sales tactics. But his most brilliant idea was to go to the best shapers(long or short) and get their design ideas, feedback and actual shaping of his plugs. From there he went on to enourage hundreds of lesser known shapers to input their personal rockers. That rocker catalogue is the defining mark that all of todays current blank manufacturers work off of. The short of what I am saying is; You don’thave to be a shaper to pour good foam, but you do need the in-put of good shapers.
McDing, your right, also look at Barry Bennett, Midget Farrelly, and Don Burford their all shapers who make foam, in fact these guys make some of the best foam in the world. Gruby was a genius in all aspects of the foam business but he was also a genius in manipulating the foam business.
Phones are still coming up “disconnected or no longer in service”
I’ll try the East guys and see what’s up tomorrow.