Although I continue to be challenged and enriched by this most excellent forum, a vague dissatisfaction deep inside me still wonders out loud, “Is there anything truly revolutionary happening in the world of surfing today?” I mean no harm, but it certainly appears that most of the top level contributors to swaylocks.com are themselves quite skilled and sincerely enthusiastic in their efforts, yet primarily devoted to incrementally perfecting the “re-invention of the wheel”, so to speak. Perhaps similar questions have been touched upon previously, but specifically: why haven`t there been very many truly significant changes in surfboard design and materials for the last 30 years? Where have all the gurus gone?
Just in the past year or two major rapid changes have hit this,"Trade that Time Forgot"industry,from materials to concepts in wave riding.The best is still yet to come.I feel that this site has accelerated this process,if not directly changed the preception of things.Sites like swaylocks are fairly new ,and are still in there infantile stages of life.Every contrubution here adds to this revolving progression…Welcome to the revolution. …Herb.
Perhaps similar questions have been touched upon previously, but > specifically: why haven`t there been very many truly significant changes > in surfboard design and materials for the last 30 years? Where have all > the gurus gone? Good question – in a way you are correct, but I’d disagree with you on the number of years. I’d decrease that by 20 to the last 10 years. Even that is debatable given some of the new technologies & materials that have evolved. I think the thruster was developed in 1982. Shortboard concaves have been highly refined since 1985. How about tow boards? What year was the bonzer created? In another way I think your point is tough to argue and highly subjective. You could say that surfboard design hasn’t changed much since the inception of surfing 2000(?) years ago. I mean we are still riding long, flat, hard things in a standing position!
Perhaps similar questions have been touched upon previously, but specifically: why haven`t there been very many truly significant changes in surfboard design and materials for the last 30 years? There have been many changes in surfboard design. Some for better, some for worse. Design over all has changed greatly for the better. Material has seen a few changes were epoxy boards are reaching the main stream. The main driving forces are material and workmanship cost. Most people do not want to pay the expense of a surfboard built to meet enviromental concerns yet. Cheap is what the comsumer wants. I myself want quality and durablity over instant cheap because in the end it does cost less and is better for the enviroment. Anthony http://www.viser.net/~anthwind/
Good question – in a way you are correct, but I’d disagree with you on > the number of years. I’d decrease that by 20 to the last 10 years. Even > that is debatable given some of the new technologies & materials that > have evolved.>>> I think the thruster was developed in 1982. Shortboard concaves have been > highly refined since 1985. How about tow boards? What year was the bonzer > created?>>> In another way I think your point is tough to argue and highly subjective. > You could say that surfboard design hasn’t changed much since the > inception of surfing 2000(?) years ago. I mean we are still riding long, > flat, hard things in a standing position! I don
t know where all the gurus may have gone, but maybe Lamonts got some valid points to consider… so, please permit me to play "IMHO, the devils advocate" for a few moments... how many of the last 20 to 30 years of spinoff technological breakthroughs that couldve been applicable to surfing have truly been adopted by the mainstream surfing industry? Does reasonably steady, incremental fine-tuning now define revolution? The standard by which all future surfing revolutions will likely be judged was arguably the most dramatic, widespread one weve ever had... In the latter years of the 1960s, where in a very short time, nearly everything considered trustworthy and predictably stable about conventional surfing was radically swept aside and altered forever… worldwide. The surfing industry and status quo of that time were literally turned upside down. Constantly progressing designs and bold, high performance surfing were accelerating ahead of the media and advertisers, rather than following them. Sadly, many experienced surfers choose to quit rather than deal with the onslaught of, what were to them, understandably bizarre changes… and a great multitude of new people enthusiastically decided to start surfing for the very same reasons. The future seemed limitless, and it was finally clear that there were many more questions than answers, loaded with potential, and blessed with far more uncrowded waves, than are easily accessable today, in which to test them all out. The advent of the bodyboard revolution began to flourish soon after… also worldwide, with much of its energy feeding directly back into mainstream surfing, as reportedly 82% of all current surfers once began as bodyboarders! Isnt it ironic then, that the general attitude of many of todays conventional surfers is to prefer FEWER bodyboarders in the water? It seems that fundamental, explosive paradigm shifts of this type often grow best in the fertile soil of increasing boredom and frustration with the way things have, for whatever reasons, continued to remain. Do these factors describe our era, or are most surfer-consumers happy and satisfied with what theyre offered? Perennial indifference by the status quo to active, “outside the box” influences, only serves to further heighten the situation… historically punctuated by courageously independent, enigmatic, brilliant, widely talented and often eccentric individuals such as Blake, Simmons, Greenough, Tom Morey, etc. are vivid, human object lessons that serve to demonstrate real, historically innovative change always seems to take place beyond the edges of our accepted norms. How fascinating, that 30+ years later, and into the new millenium, much of surfboard design momentum has again swung its focus back the other way, and the broad spectrum of the longboard revival is in full warp overdrive… In centuries past, Martin Luther observed that the history of mankind is like a drunken man, who staggers from one wall to the next. In similar ways, the brief history of modern surfing has shown itself to be no different. I can`t wait to see what happens next!
Perhaps similar questions have been touched upon previously, but > specifically: why haven`t there been very many truly significant changes > in surfboard design and materials for the last 30 years?>>> There have been many changes in surfboard design. Some for better, some > for worse. Design over all has changed greatly for the better. Material > has seen a few changes were epoxy boards are reaching the main stream. The > main driving forces are material and workmanship cost. Most people do not > want to pay the expense of a surfboard built to meet enviromental concerns > yet. Cheap is what the comsumer wants. I myself want quality and durablity > over instant cheap because in the end it does cost less and is better for > the enviroment.>>> Anthony It may cost less and may be better for the enviorment but does it really work the same? My point is, is it worth it to lose performance for lightness and durability. Dont get me wrong these factory pressed board are a great concept, the use of divinycel is great for preventing pressure dings. I just believe they should be using this technology in a different manner. EPS foam…get out of here. I want a board I can lean into and not worry about it shooting out from underneath me b/c it is way too light. Epoxy boards just dont have enough flex underneath for me. The Corporate world is trying to mold the way a surfboard is made after the way a windsurfer is made. We have to remember we dont have to have the lightest possible board. A wave will produce a hundred times more power than wind. I think the way we are going now is good. I just dont feel right if I dont have a hand shaped board under my feet from the local guy who surfs my break. Sure there could be some refinments, but we dont need a full overhaul. I think DHP may be the next best thing. These new adjustable fins will be great. Just hang in there and dont give in to the radical changes that the corporate world wants the surfing industry to make. The proof is in the pudding. The boards you guys are making now work better than any surftech, bic, tuflite, soft top i have ever ridden. Another point is I work in a local shop that sells these boards and time after time I have kids coming in to order a custom board but cant b/c they do not do them. I called the reps up and they said the only thing they could do was maybe do a special color scheme but that would take up to 6 months. These same kids then go and order from a local shaper…good for them…these corporate guys are slowly hanging themselves. Klein
Although I continue to be challenged and enriched by this most excellent > forum, a vague dissatisfaction deep inside me still wonders out loud, > “Is there anything truly revolutionary happening in the world of > surfing today?” I mean no harm, but it certainly appears that most of > the top level contributors to swaylocks.com are themselves quite skilled > and sincerely enthusiastic in their efforts, yet primarily devoted to > incrementally perfecting the “re-invention of the wheel”, so to > speak.>>> Perhaps similar questions have been touched upon previously, but > specifically: why haven`t there been very many truly significant changes > in surfboard design and materials for the last 30 years? Where have all > the gurus gone? The level of progressive shortboard surfing is so fricken advanced now(read goodbye Gerry Lopez,hello Cory Lopez) that the 10 year Kelly Slater era is still going strong. A teenager who can’t pull a pop shovit or carving 360 is nothing to his peers! The kids are ripping and the board designs are ‘allowing’ the acrobatical skateboard arials to be landed, but stength factors are what is still lacking in board decks! Until kids get even beyond the amazing manuvers as seen in any current LOST Video(or whatever) the desire to excel at ripping like Slater or ? will outshadow any surfboard changes. Andy Irons, Christian Fletcher,Kelly Slater, etc. ‘are’ the Guru’s and anybody lucky enough to shape them a board is gonna be a busy bee. Just two cents from an older ripper with two teenagers. Take a look at the Nev webpage if you think innovation is stale! Happy surfing…
It seems that after reading and re-reading the message that started this string, the question should have been; “Are there any pioneers out there?” Luckily, in the last ten years the surfing population has come out of a myopic mindset and opened up to all sorts of different shapes of boards. Yes, a lot of these are old styles and shapes taken and refined. However that doesn’t mean that there is no innovation. Innovation primarily comes in three categories, shape/design, materials, and rider’s style/skill. Longboards, although not new have virtually nothing to do with their ancestors they weight a fraction of the old beasts, and rocker templates have been refined so that they are much more user friendly. Also the fins have been refined to make it so that they actually turn. I think that many more innovations are possible with longboards but that it is not likely that any of those changes will come quickly. Also as they further develop you will see more specialization boards build specifically for nose riding, or designed for specific kinds of waves, that is part of the developement process. Shortboards have also gone through a developmental process. In fact they went so far that the average surfer on the street can’t ride what the top 44 rides (not that any of us could guess more than 3 or 4 names of the top 44 or care too much about it). I think that is why there was a big shift to “retro” boards like the fish and refinements from there. The surfing public wanted a shortboard ride on something that was rideable to a guy with paddling arms that spend 40+ hours a week in an office or more user friendly to those just battling ageing. I think that we see a lot of retro stuff for two reasons, first is nostalgia, second is that a lot of these designs actually worked and it is a logical starting point for refinement. Notice however that I have been dealing with refinement, through which we will see a lot innovation, after all none of us drive model t’s but our cars still have 4 wheels, an engine, and a transmission. I think that “radical” innovations will come from back yard guys, in fact I’ve been thinking about this for some time, even more so after that post about garage shapers last week. First off most R&D for major brands goes to professional surfing, where as I’ve already pointed out, most of us just can’t ride the same boards that the pro’s do. Secondly most full time builders are busy enough just keeping on top of the work that they already have not to mention finding the time to build new stuff. Thirdly even if they build it they then have to find a market for it and for as much as the surfing public may have opened its collective mind they haven’t opened it too much (probably part of the reason for retro). Since a backyard shaper (which I must say I don’t really like that term) has no pro team to worry about, does not necessarily have to worry about selling a board, and builds it more for the pure exileration that comes from building a board and then surfing it (not making a decent profit to labor ratio), I dare to say that it is more likely to see innovative boards from them. Another aspect of this is also education and experience. Engineers working on stuff in their spare time or on the side or people with other education or experience that gives them a new perspective on wave riding. Of course the real catch is that you really aren’t going to hear a lot about pioneering advancements unless the surf media gets a hold of it and even then it that doesn’t always mean much. They may get posted here but if you don’t read it how will you know? And besides what you consider innovative may be old hat to another. Like kiteboarding, that isn’t new it is just an extention of sports that people have been doing for decades. Same with the hydrofoil tow in sstuff. The air chair (where they got the original hydrofoil for surfing from) has been around for at least a decade. Well I’ve got to get going so I’ll shut up for now. Matthew Weaver>>> Although I continue to be challenged and enriched by this most excellent > forum, a vague dissatisfaction deep inside me still wonders out loud, > “Is there anything truly revolutionary happening in the world of > surfing today?” I mean no harm, but it certainly appears that most of > the top level contributors to swaylocks.com are themselves quite skilled > and sincerely enthusiastic in their efforts, yet primarily devoted to > incrementally perfecting the “re-invention of the wheel”, so to > speak.>>> Perhaps similar questions have been touched upon previously, but > specifically: why haven`t there been very many truly significant changes > in surfboard design and materials for the last 30 years? Where have all > the gurus gone? http://www.siempresurf.com
I think that we see a lot of retro stuff for two reasons, first is > nostalgia, second is that a lot of these designs actually worked and it is > a logical starting point for refinement. Notice however that I have been > dealing with refinement, through which we will see a lot innovation, after > all none of us drive model t’s but our cars still have 4 wheels, an > engine, and a transmission. The Los Angeles Times Auto section recently ran a fluff piece that was surprisingly interesting: designers are looking into using what they called a “skateboard” platform to replace the current suspension/frame models. Cross-pollination?>>> Engineers working on stuff in their spare time or on the side or people > with other education or experience that gives them a new perspective on > wave riding. There is the model for much innovation. Poeple get tired of working for someone else, of doing it “their” way, or they see a better way but haven’t the time or budget. Decent “corporate” owners/managers still have to keep things flowing so the business stays open and everybody works. So into the garage goes the innovator…>>> Of course the real catch is that you really aren’t going to hear a lot > about pioneering advancements unless the surf media gets a hold of it and > even then it that doesn’t always mean much. There is the real chokepoint in surfing. Lead times used to hang up the surf magazines more than anything, but with almost all of them publishing monthly they are constantly under deadline pressure. Costs are huge, and advertisers have incredible clout. Peer (or “bro”) pressure, real or imagined, is there. How many guys leave magazine positions and go to clothing companies? Real journalism hardly exists in the surf world, as even the best seem to have to dumb down the content to meet demographic targets. Photographers are the stars, but photos are like statisitics…they can easily be made to lie. That isn’t the photographers fault. If you believed the magazines you’d think every day is sunny and the water is warm and you are in Hawaii… Instead of telling things like they are, of simply reporting on new and weird things, they try to make the content palatable to all readers, which usually pleases none unless they kick bodyboarding somewhere in there.
Perhaps similar questions have been touched upon previously, but > specifically: why haven`t there been very many truly significant changes > in surfboard design and materials for the last 30 years? Where have all > the gurus gone? Observations of a Swaylocks lurker: 1) Surfing is bound by tradition (I hesitate to use the word ‘entrenched’). Innovation is shouted down by 15 “traditionalists” who’s judgement is limited to “it has no soul”. 2) Advances in design were driven by surfers and their desire to break free of limitations imposed by their equipment. Subsequently, the improved equipment led to new levels of performance and new limitations. In other words innovation is part of a cycle. I believe we’ve reached the point where boards can do almost anything any surfer is capable of and are more advanced than the 99.5% of the rest of us. 3) In the past, advances came so quickly that a lot of good ideas were scrapped before they had a chance to mature. There’s a lot of picking from the scrap heap going on right now and I believe that’s a good thing. 4) There are a lot of advances taking place right now but they’re a lot more subtle than the days when boards were chopped in half. IMHO we haven’t even scratched the surface in the area of fins. 5) From a surfer’s standpoint (and not counting crowds), these are the greatest days ever. The choice of boards is absolutely astounding and mind-boggling. 6) My kudos to this forum. Innovation will develop from this collective meeting of the minds.
Like it’s already been stated, popular innovation is driven by consumer demand. There have been many subtle performance-enhancing alterations in board design with each passing decade. We can associate design with a year. This is like innovation in ANY realm. Automobile innovation has/is going through the exact same cycle. Since the Model-A there have been traditionalist in the consumer population, so innovation must GRADUALLY make its way to the public…via the media, of course. However, one design leap we must not forget is this very recent return to FINLESS designs. This, I believe, will turn a new page. BUT STILL, this entire conversation revolves around something very simple: a floating stick. There are no moving parts on boards (yet), so how can we expect to make quantum leaps with something so simple. The wheel is still round. We’ve got rubber on it now, but that’s been around for ages. So innovation is subtle. Even a thousand years from now, we’ll still be on floating sticks (if there’s still an ocean…or an earth for that matter). Or we may even return to something more primitive…dolphin suits. Innovation is a cycle. There’s nothing new under the sun. But perhaps something old has yet to be rediscovered. Just my babbling…
Just in the past year or two major rapid changes have hit this,"Trade > that Time Forgot"industry,from materials to concepts in wave > riding.The best is still yet to come.I feel that this site has accelerated > this process,if not directly changed the preception of things.Sites like > swaylocks are fairly new ,and are still in there infantile stages of > life.Every contrubution here adds to this revolving > progression…Welcome to the revolution.>>> …Herb. The circle is as round as it gets. It’s what’s inside the circle that counts!
The Los Angeles Times Auto section recently ran a fluff piece that was > surprisingly interesting: designers are looking into using what they > called a “skateboard” platform to replace the current > suspension/frame models. Cross-pollination?>>> There is the model for much innovation. Poeple get tired of working for > someone else, of doing it “their” way, or they see a better way > but haven’t the time or budget. Decent “corporate” > owners/managers still have to keep things flowing so the business stays > open and everybody works. So into the garage goes the innovator…>>> There is the real chokepoint in surfing. Lead times used to hang up the > surf magazines more than anything, but with almost all of them publishing > monthly they are constantly under deadline pressure. Costs are huge, and > advertisers have incredible clout. Peer (or “bro”) pressure, > real or imagined, is there. How many guys leave magazine positions and go > to clothing companies? Real journalism hardly exists in the surf world, as > even the best seem to have to dumb down the content to meet demographic > targets. Photographers are the stars, but photos are like > statisitics…they can easily be made to lie. That isn’t the photographers > fault. If you believed the magazines you’d think every day is sunny and > the water is warm and you are in Hawaii…>>> Instead of telling things like they are, of simply reporting on new and > weird things, they try to make the content palatable to all readers, which > usually pleases none unless they kick bodyboarding somewhere in there. It
s so truly encouraging to read such responses to my queries! But, having read through the posts to this point, I still wonder why more outstanding, revolutionary changes havent occurred that affect our everyday surfing in such a long time. The constant, gradual improvements in surfboard design and materials we see are not comparable to a true REVOLUTION!! Those sort of things always keep happening whether theres any big changes out there or not. Maybe its just too crowded for unhindered top level performance testing nowadays? Doesnt it seem that in order to get some breathing room to experiment, todays talented shapers have to schedule some sort of “surf trip” to escape from their own over-populated local (common beachbreak) conditions? Or resign themselves to listening to the feedback from others who can surf better? How many skilled surfboard shapers do you know who go surfing weekly in uncrowded, quality point, reef or beach break surf? Does anyone seriously consider Bonzers, exotic laminates like carbon graphite, concaves (maybe in longboards), footstraps, hydrofoils, flexible tails, EPS foam and epoxy, ETC. MAINSTREAM? Well, maybe the Surftech type of boards are now thought of as “mainstream”. For the rest of them, a few visits to different surfshops doesnt convince me of any of that; probably most were look alike Thrusters under 6-6" and longboards over 9to be sure. One wonders then how anyone in the mainstream can ever discover and experiment with great new things if most of the time theyre wrapped up with doing their daily ding repairs, trying to sell what`s already on the racks and tracking retail sales fashion trends. Whew!! Again I post my original query, “Where have all the gurus gone?” Is it foolish to ask, “Will the real Tom Blakes and Bob Simmons of TODAY please stand up?” Pardons in advance, but no innovative tinkerers and dabblers need arise.
Like it’s already been stated, popular innovation is driven by consumer > demand. There have been many subtle performance-enhancing alterations in > board design with each passing decade. We can associate design with a > year. This is like innovation in ANY realm. Automobile innovation has/is > going through the exact same cycle. Since the Model-A there have been > traditionalist in the consumer population, so innovation must GRADUALLY > make its way to the public…via the media, of course.>>> However, one design leap we must not forget is this very recent return to > FINLESS designs. This, I believe, will turn a new page. BUT STILL, this > entire conversation revolves around something very simple: a floating > stick. There are no moving parts on boards (yet), so how can we expect to > make quantum leaps with something so simple. The wheel is still round. > We’ve got rubber on it now, but that’s been around for ages. So innovation > is subtle.>>> Even a thousand years from now, we’ll still be on floating sticks (if > there’s still an ocean…or an earth for that matter). Or we may even > return to something more primitive…dolphin suits. Innovation is a cycle. > There’s nothing new under the sun. But perhaps something old has yet to be > rediscovered.>>> Just my babbling… Some of the gurus chime in around here occasionally. This is probably the best time for surfers because, design wise/board wise, the options seem almost limitless. Advancements in fin design are being made as well as surfboard construction and materials. Not everyone can surf like Slater. The guy is unreal, but I’m into a different kind of thing. You know what I think the real revolution is? The fact that surfers are now surfing the way they want to and on the type of boards they’re interested in and, in most cases, not catching too much flack for it. I remember a time (in my experience high school days–late 80’s)when surfers were heavily influenced by the pros or the surfing media and were pretty closed-minded to anyone who rode a different board in a different style. I went from ridiculing the older guys on longboards one summer to pulling cheater fives on an old Hansen “Mike Doyle model” the next. Seeing a picture of China sliding @ Threes influenced me. He just looked like he was having a blast, ya know? People can say what they will about a guy like Joel Tudor, but I think he has done alot to show the surfing community that some of the designs of the past are fundamentally sound, but can be improved upon and made even better. I guess I just enjoy the overall open-mindedness within surfing these days. It’s refreshing. Who knows where surfing will go from here, but I feel good about it because we have collectively and individually gleaned alot more information/knowledge and that can only benefit in the long run. Keep surfing!
on the face of a wave, that hasn’t already been done? it used to be good enough to bash the lip and come back down. now kids want to be 5 feet above the lip, getting air on a 5 lb., 1 3/4" thick board with foot straps. maybe those who feel the pull of the ‘retro’ philosophy are those who would just prefer to stay on the wave. perhaps the realm that remains unexplored and ripe for innovation is just above the lip.
on the face of a wave, that hasn’t already been done? it used to be good > enough to bash the lip and come back down. now kids want to be 5 feet > above the lip, getting air on a 5 lb., 1 3/4" thick board with foot > straps. maybe those who feel the pull of the ‘retro’ philosophy are those > who would just prefer to stay on the wave. perhaps the realm that remains > unexplored and ripe for innovation is just above the lip. Or below the surface?
Or below the surface? Yes, and perhaps the final, primal frontier. The astounding subject matter of George Greenough
s film, "Dolphin Glide" (<a href="http://www.dolphinglide.com/">http://www.dolphinglide.com/</a>). THIS is what a reporter visiting George Greenough said of his 1 minute viewing of a Rough Cut of DOLPHIN GLIDE: "... a wave lit from within by emeraldic, flaming shafts of light slowly breaks on the screen from the perspective of a dolphin. The next wave rears up, I am mesmerized by individual water droplets, blood red, falling from the tube onto the face, when unbelievably into the frame comes a Dolphin SURFING. Surfing, not swimming, and somehow George has the camera right there with it, at dawn, as the Dolphin rides its first wave of the day. It is a truly astonishing sight and it floors me with giant waves of emotion right in the guts. Why had no one prepared me for this? Im laughing and hooting and somehow on the verge of tears all at the same time." Acrobatical skateboard aerials?? Pause to consider that untold generations of dolphins have been doing those maneuvers, and much better, long before the idea of surfing ever occurred to humans! Perhaps someone witnessed their free, joyous rides and made the ancient connection to themselves? Dont get me wrong, I love skateboarding with all my heart, but when it comes to being tutored about how to best relate to the ocean, Id rather get my clues for surfing and FUN, from the dolphin.
The circle is as round as it gets. It’s what’s inside the circle that > counts! …That’s why it’s called a revolution,it always has a way of making it back around!
Computers. A lot of gurus can be found at the intersection of computers and surfing. Shaping machines, CAD surfboard design, e-surf forcasts, online surfshops. None of these were in existance 30… 20… 15(???) years ago. All have had a major impact on the mainstream. Women. This isn’t a breakthrough in design but a breakthrough in the mentality of surfing. Women have always had their place in the world of surfing but today we see women towing into giant waves, launching airs, etc. I consider these people to be gurus. I think the mainstream is just beginning to recognize the effect that women have had on surfing. We’ll begin to see things from a whole new perspective as more women become involved with design. Imagination. The guy who’s happy surfing his local break doesn’t need some guru to usher in a new design breakthrough. It’s the people who want to launch extended gliding airs, tow into 100’ waves, ride inside of waves instead of on top of them. This is where the radical changes will come from. When imagination and physical ability go beyond the capabilities of the equipment, it’s time for a new tool.