Paul Gross- have you been sharing templates with Bob Duncan of Wilderness Surfboards?
I’m assuming you mean fin templates? No, I have never worked with Bob on templates, or anything else. The Aimes “Greenough 4c” template (Aimes’ name for it) was something I developed completely on my own, and later heard that it was the same as one of his…which makes sense, because it’s a good fin, and good fins tend to re-invent themselves. The Aimes Greenough 4A was taken from a pre-Bob Duncan Wilderness, circa 1969.
Paul, The 4c appears to resemble the original Stage 4 the most. It’s also only avaible in a 9.5" - I’m guessing that’s what works best. The True Ames 4a comes in different sizes. Is it a more versatile fin? Does it prefer a certain tail size/shape like the Stage 4? It (the 4a) appears to open up more options.
Paul, The 4c appears to resemble the original Stage 4 the most. It’s also only avaible in a 9.5" - I’m guessing that’s what works best. The True Ames 4a comes in different sizes. Is it a more versatile fin? Does it prefer a certain tail size/shape like the Stage 4? It (the 4a) appears to open up more options. The 4C is nothing like the Stage 4, even if it was scaled down to 9". It is a fin designed to be used with a 3/8" thick panel…that’s why the base is realatively narrow. The Aimes 4A is supposed to be made from a 1/2" panel, but they offer it in a 3/8" panel, which is way to thin. Not a good fin as they make it. When the 4A is made out of a 1/2" panel, it is failry versitile, but it like wider square and arc tails best.
Thanks, Paul. You just saved me $44.95 plus tax.
(Paul, The 4c appears to resemble the original Stage 4 the most. It’s also only avaible in a 9.5" - I’m guessing that’s what works best. The True Ames 4a comes in different sizes. Is it a more versatile fin? Does it prefer a certain tail size/shape like the Stage 4? It (the 4a) appears to open up more options.) “The 4C is nothing like the Stage 4, even if it was scaled down to 9”. It is a fin designed to be used with a 3/8" thick panel…that’s why the base is realatively narrow. The Aimes 4A is supposed to be made from a 1/2" panel, but they offer it in a 3/8" panel, which is way to thin. Not a good fin as they make it. When the 4A is made out of a 1/2" panel, it is failry versitile, but it like wider square and arc tails best" – In all fairness, specific questions regarding True Ames fins are best answered by going to the source, Chuck Ames. Along with a host of many others, George Greenough has high regard for the design and function of Chuck`s foils. http://www.trueames.com/home.htm Phone: 805 685 8341 - Fax: 805 562 8540 - E-mail: – For additional technical information, contact George Greenough: Country Code (61) 266-877090 (George has no email address) Mail: P.O.Box 611, Byron Bay, NSW Australia 2481 http://www.georgegreenough.com/ –
Chuck Ames doesn’t know his hat from his ass about flex fins, and neither does Dale Solomonson.
Hey Paul, No judgement calls from this end but from yours what do you think about the sail-boarders who say they use flex fins to spill power off the fin? If this is true, does it stand up to reasonable thinking that while the surfer is in a turn that and a flex fin is doing it’s thing that power (drive) is acutally being lost? Because the fin tends to conform to the direction of the turn one might think that the flex causes less drag and lets the board go faster. Maybe it’s just a compromise. Fins are always about the drag & drive equation anyway. I know there is much theoretical discussion on this. Some surfers swear by rigid fins others by flexible ones. I’m withholding my judgment (if I ever reach one) ‘till I’m further down the road in R & D. Ultimately it’s about different boards, different fins, and different surfing styles. Gone Surfin’, Rich
Hi Rich, I don’t know anything about sailboards… Yes, power is lost when a surfboard fin flexes. But what happens, on the right equipment, is that the fin gives way and allows the drive area of the board to function in a turn…if the drive area is forward of center. Then when the board levels out, the fin returns to it original shape and drives the board like a sail. A stiff, smaller fin will allow a board to roll over onto it’s forward rail in a turn, but lacks drive as the turn releases. This is a very hard thing to verbalize. Sorry.
“In all fairness, specific questions regarding True Ames fins are best answered by going to the source, Chuck Ames. Along with a host of many others, George Greenough has high regard for the design and function of Chuck`s foils.” Dale, My reply to “ghunt’s” sincere and honest questions regarding the True Ames Greenough 4A and 4C fins – which were specifically directed towards me – was an equally sincere and honest answer. I’ve spent many hundreds of hours riding each one, and my reply was from the heart. I don’t see why that doesn’t meet your holier-than-thou criteria for “fairness.” OK, for the last time… I’m going to explain what’s going on with the True Ames Greenough 4A and 4C fins. I apologize in advance to the majority of Swaylocks readers who have no interest in this chickn-sh*t political skirmish… The Greenough 4A was a fin template I took directly off of a pre-Bob Duncan Wilderness (circa 1969) which is owned by Ray Maloney. The fin is 100% a “Wilderness/Greenough” design. I simply copied it and revived it. I had nothing to do with the design of that fin, nor am I claiming that I did. However… The original 9.75” Wilderness fin on Ray’s board was fairly thick in the base. In the mid-90’s, Spencer Kellogg and I made a number of prototypes from this fin outline and found that the template only worked if it was made from a 1/2" thick panel. The 3/8" panel fins tracked so severely, they were even hard to paddle comfortably. (1/8" might seem like a minor increase in thickness, but it is a full 33% thicker than 3/8". Obviously, this a tremendous difference in release.) I sent the 9.75” Wilderness fin template to Chuck Ames, and asked for some fins made of 1/2" thick panels. He made them up, and they were serviceable. The foils were a little funky, but this is to be expected in a production situation. So far, so good. Eventually, True Ames began to offer the Wilderness 9.75” fin in his catalog, touted as the “Greenough 4A,” but they were only available out of 3/8” thick panels. This thickness was used for cost reasons, which is to be expected, but the 9.75” Greenough 4A fin design DOES NOT WORK out of a thin panel. By any measure, THE STOCK TRUE AMES GREENOUGH 4A IS NOT A GOOD FIN. I don’t care what glowing things George Greenough might have said to Dale Solomonson regarding how well Chuck Ames executes George’s other fin designs, THE STOCK TRUE AMES 9.75” GREENOUGH 4A FIN SUCKS. The True Ames 4C: The so-called “True Ames Greenough 4C” started out as a fin I made for myself, FROM SCRATCH, in the late 80’s. It was 9.5” deep, with a ½” thick foil at the base. It was, and is, a good fin. There is NO DOUBT that it resembles many fins made by George Greenough, Michael Cundith, Skip Frye, Greg Liddle, Bob Duncan, etc. But, I began with a blank piece of cardboard one rainy spring afternoon, started drawing curves from scratch, made prototypes, altered them, and 3 years later ended up with a fin that I really liked in hulls over 8’8” long. It was just something I did for myself, for fun. (Spencer Kellogg owns the last of the prototype fins.) If the True Ames Greenough 4C resembles fins made by other builders, I’m not surprised. As I’ve said before, good fins tend to reinvent themselves. In the late 90’s, True Ames started making a line of “flex fins.” True Ames made it clear that they were not going to be able to make fins out of ½” thick panels for business reasons, so I modified my ½” thick 9.5” fin to suit a 3/8” thick panel. I narrowed the base an inch or so, and that provided some of the release it needed. These fins worked pretty good, but not as good as my original template, which was intended for ½” thick panels. Chuck Ames then started marketing this fin design without my permission. It’s no big deal…he probably sold 10 a year, if that. (Chuck also began to sell Greg Liddle’s fin designs without Greg’s permission.) I asked Chuck about it one day, and he blew me off. (Greg Liddle had the same experience.) The next thing I know, my 9.5” template is being sold as a “Greenough 4C.” Someone at True Ames told me that it was cool for them to use Greenough’s name on it my 9.5” fin because I “ripped off” the template from a Bob Duncan/Wilderness fin design anyway. I don’t mind George getting credit for anything short of the sun rising, because he deserves it. And Bob Duncan has made a lot of good boards and fins over the years under the Wilderness label. But for people to spin the whole thing into me being a rip-off is infuriating. (Bob Duncan himself once told me about the time he compared a longboard fin he had carefully developed for himself to a Takayama fin, and they were almost identical. This stuff happens to everybody.) For the record: Even though I have issues with True Ames, the stock Greenough 4C fin works in the stock, 3/8” thick form, because I altered my original 9.5” template to work with a 3/8” thick panel. However, the stock Wilderness/Greenough 4A is a dog. If you want to try the performance of the “Wilderness/G4A” as it was intended, buy a stock True Ames version, sand the finish off of it, lay up 7 layers of 6 oz cloth on each side, refoil it into a flex fin, and you will have a ½” thick 9.75” Wilderness fin… and it will rip. Better yet, ride it as a stock 3/8” thick fin, THEN build it up to ½” and feel the difference. I know this rant is of little interest to most of the people who come to this site, but if people like Dale Solomonson are going to jump in and cast doubt on my lifetime of sincere, poverty stricken surfing and board building, then I have no choice but to respond. Again, I apologize to Mike and all the good people who come in here expecting useful information, and get stuck with this nonsense.
for what it’s worth, I can back this up.I was there the day Ray brought that old Wilderness into the shop-minds were spinning!I can attest to how many hours,days and years Paul has spent in r&d developing and tuning fins, rockers, etc.eg, covered bottom of a lngboard with bondo, then spent the day riding a wave, come in sand a little bit of bondo off here and there, go back out and repeat many times until the right rocker was achieved for performance desired. I have ridden all the fins he mentions and agree with him completely.I was shocked one day when I saw what had previously been the PG 9.5 flex fin marked as a wilderness/Greenough fin-the fin he spent three years developing.Finally, I don’t know industry standards but Ames has taken designs from PG and Greg Liddle, sold them and neither one has recieved any compensation for it.I don’t know if George gets any $ from Ames or Wilderness, or if anybody else gets $ from fin/board manfacturers for their contributions(I did hear Tudor does)It eally is a shame when someone spends SO much time developing/refining only to be ripped off and then be acussed of the being the rip off-er…
“If you want to try the performance of the “Wilderness/G4A” as it was intended, buy a stock True Ames version, sand the finish off of it, lay up 7 layers of 6 oz cloth on each side, refoil it into a flex fin, and you will have a ½” thick 9.75” Wilderness fin… and it will rip. Better yet, ride it as a stock 3/8” thick fin, THEN build it up to ½” and feel the difference.” Paul, I’d like to try that, but considering the circumstances, don’t think I could purchase the fin and feel good about it. Anyway, thanks for the putting it on the record. I just printed & filed your so called rant.
Gregg, I don’t mean to stop anyone from having any good experiences with board or fin design. By all means, try a stock 4A fin, and then build it up and try it again. Paul
“”…i apologize to mike & all the good people who come in here expecting useful information, & get stuck w/ this nonsense…" paul even your rants are full of useful information. don’t apologize. since this is a design forum, & many of its participants are trying to eke out a living in the field, the issue of what happens to an idea or design on the way to having a price tag hung on it in a shop is completely relevant (& useful). thanks johnny
“Chuck Ames doesn’t know his hat from his ass about flex fins, and neither does Dale Solomonson.” Dale has been an invaluable long-time contributor here at Swaylock’s. He has generously shared a veritable gold mine of information with the Swaylock’s crew and me personally. From surfmats to flex spoons and beyond, his knowledge of surfing and surfcraft is mind boggling. I have the deepest respect for the guy! Dale’s passion for surfing and fun is as pure as they come. He is the epitome of Aloha spirit!
…Ouch…!!! …Where’s the love…???.. Happy Valentine’s Day PaulJensen
The foil as demonstrated by the glass layer lines on Paul’s flex fin is the finest I’ve ever seen and I’m sure he has his board/fin combinations wired but Dale deserves much better. To say he doesn’t know his hat from his ass about flex fins seems awfully harsh in light of all that Dale obviously knows and has contributed.
whether it’s a recreated Simmon’s board , or a Greenough fin alteration , It’s probably better to use your name instead of the predecessors.