Wood Veneer Boards

Open question to Paul Jensen and the wooden board crew…

There’s a guy in my area doing vacumn bag wooden laminate boards.

http://www.surfgear.cc/new_page_1.htm

I used to own a Bamboo Surfboards Australia mal and am interested in what difference the veneer makes. I’d love a hardwood veneer board like milo, koa, zebrawood, cocobola or mango, but it seem like most wooden board makers prefer softer more flexible woods like bamboo, cork, balsa, etc…

Will it be a mistake to build a hardwood veneered board? There was a guy (Gary Clark?)on the big island that was doing it but you don’t here from him anymore. Seem like hardwood and carbon fiber would react the same way but I don’t see anyone show a oak, cherry or walnut laminated board.

Mahalos

check out star-board.com, a windsurfing company, but they make wood lam boards… they say the wood helps with impact damage. i have owned a few and they don’t dent easily…

i have been thinking about using a wood venner as a deck patch on a surfboard to help cut down on heel dents. i was thinking about doing it the starboard style ( painted rails) so i don’t have to wrap the rails and the flexibility (or lack of) of a hardwood won’t be such an issue…

in the Rockler wood working catalog they sell some nice looking flexible venners and some nice hardwood venners sized to reskin doors, they also sell some pressure applied venners that might be fun to try with a vac. bag. Rockler.com is there web site…

http://www.rockler.com/ecom7/product_details.cfm?&offerings_id=2217

http://www.rockler.com/ecom7/product_details.cfm?&offerings_id=2213

wood is good.

A have some teak veener laying around and it breaks very, very easily. Wouldn’t want to try and wrap that over a rail. I don’t recall ever having had my hands on any balsa, but seeing how it’s used in model building, it must be relativly flexible. I think the strength to weight ratio for balsa is fairly high as well. I guess you could use hardwood veener for deck/bottom inlays, but I’m not sure it would be all that much stronger. Would look nice though.

regards,

Håvard

Quote:

Open question to Paul Jensen and the wooden board crew…

There’s a guy in my area doing vacumn bag wooden laminate boards.

http://www.surfgear.cc/new_page_1.htm

I used to own a Bamboo Surfboards Australia mal and am interested in what difference the veneer makes. I’d love a hardwood veneer board like milo, koa, zebrawood, cocobola or mango, but it seem like most wooden board makers prefer softer more flexible woods like bamboo, cork, balsa, etc…

Will it be a mistake to build a hardwood veneered board? There was a guy (Gary Clark?)on the big island that was doing it but you don’t here from him anymore. Seem like hardwood and carbon fiber would react the same way but I don’t see anyone show a oak, cherry or walnut laminated board.

Mahalos

That would be Gary Young… not Clark.

Gary Young holds a piece of bamboo fiber against a koa canoe at his shop in Kapoho on the Big Island yesterday. The canoe hull is made of bamboo fiber laminate with a veneer of koa.

while I don’t build wooden boards at the moment ( mebbe sometime in the future) , I do build wooden boats… which includes bending lots of hardwood, so I might be able to shed some light on the subject.

The boards you see on that site are built using strips of veneer bent around polystyrene foam, not one big piece bent around the whole board, done that way so that you don’t get any major compound curves, though you do have to bend 'em around tight radii here and there, rails and such. The reasons you don’t see hardwood used for this? Weight is one consideration, plus the denser grain of something like oak won’t necessarily take up resin as balsa, cedar and the like will.

Now, bending the veneer - oak, which I use a lot of, is gonna be kinda stiff. Bending it around the rails - well, either it’s gonna crack or it’s gonna be stiff enough that it crushes foam rather than bending around it. You can heat up oak with steam to get it to bend very nicely indeed, but as you might guess a very hot, very wet veneer is gonna be something you don’t want to squash into foam. Besides which, you need to get it formed before it cools off or dries out ( otherwise it won’t bend) , which isn’t gonna work out real well with a vac bag setup. When we do a tight curve veneer lamination in the boat biz, we do it around a form or around something relatively hard like heavy timber or steel. Bending bigger stuff is a pretty interesting - a very good steam-bending FAQ here ( http://www.wcha.org/tidbits/steamfaq.html ) , similar to the setup and techniques I use.

If you were to try steam bending stiffer woods around, say, a board that had been lightly glassed ( 4 oz cloth or less ) I’d expect the heat to make delam problems or soften the resin enough that the board would be awfully lumpy or both. Heavier glassing might take care of it, but then you’d wind up with a very heavy board.

However, there is a way to sort of get it to work with hardwoods. On areas like the deck and bottom, which are relatively flat surfaces, use the hardwood veneer strips laid in where it doesn’t have to be bent much, no more than the gentle front to back bend of the deck and bottom rocker. Then you can use lighter, more easily bent woods for those difficult spots like the rails. If you wanted to get fancy… http://www.artmarquetry.com/ will give you some ideas.

hope that’s of use

doc…

ive made my share of hardwood boards…got a few in the production line right now,

there pretty much mantle peice boards…

you may find this hard to beleive , but with the hard woods i cant get as good a strength to weight ratio as with lighter woods…

one particular problem is stiffness ,coz the wood is so much harder it transfers load to the glass , because you have to use less resin and glass , to achieve a realistic weight ,the smaller amount of glass cant tolerate the forces your putting on the board ,however if weight is not an issue , then yes you can get some beautiful looking boards ,one of my favourites is american cherry,also teak and niarta is nice ,blackbutt is interesting as well,plus we have some nice australian hard woods that look great to , jarrah,karri,and marri all look sweet in boards, i got my digi cam today so ill post some pics when ive worked out how to use it…

as far as bending it , no problems , i have a technique in which i can pull the tightest compound curves with out the timber spliting…

when it comes to strength to weight ratios and performance , out of the 60 or so timbers ive used to make surfboards its only balsa,western red cedar and fiji cedar ,which ive found perform the best , in the sense of getting good weight plus great flex and memory characteristics…

hope that answers something for you…

regards

BERT

hey oneula ,just thought id throw in a pic of a western red cedar board currently in the system …i will post another pic when its finished …

have fun …

regards

BERT

ps

i got another tassie oak /niarta combo but it looks crap not worth posting a pic…

I’m very curious about using wood veneers. It seems like you could achieve a much stronger, lighter, more durable board than with fiberglass.

How thick is the veneer for these boards? Do you use different thicknesses for different kinds of wood? Do you run the wood veneer both ways, lengthwise and width wise? Can you get away with not using any fiberglass at all?

I don’t think veneer is going to work for strength w/o fiberglass.

Gary young developed bamboo mat lamed boards that were later taken by Bamboo Surfboards Aust.

the mats will give you the strength you need.

I picked up some instructions and plans for a laminate board. I was kinda ashamed for buying it off ebay until I saw a guy who bought the plans a month ago and now has this on ebay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=22710&item=3684399327&rd=1

Looks pretty decent.

i also bought those same plans for the hell of it. i can safely say that if you follow those plans with out any modification the board will suck ass. reason #1 the board will have a dead flat deck. reason #2 the board will have rocker but a dead flat bottom. reason #3 the board will have a dead flat deck. reason 4 the guy says “glass it with fiberglass” but then goes on to say no cloth is necessary!!! but then again. i guess if you have never made any kind of surf craft it would be a fun “paddle board” project and might get you interested in making other fun things…

having owned a longboard with a dead flat deck made by some jerk who didn’t take my order seriously (he made the log that i ordered out of a performance lb blank that was even 2 inches too short) i can tell you that wide boards with flat decks don’t turn so hot…

Hey does anyone know if Gary Young has a website or any more info on his beautiful boards and canoes? I have an older 11’ sail board made by him with koa wood veneer that I wanted to know more about. Aloha, Jimmy

Bert do you sandwich the wood between layers of fiberglass or does the wood go directly on the foam?

Joe

yes you absolutly have to use glass either side of the wood …

anyone who try’s to sell you a veneer board without glass either side of the sandwich is trying to rip you off or he has no idea…

if you dont use glass then you must use anything else with a high tensile strength , hemp,wool, kevlar,carbon,all can substitute for glass fabric under the wood…

regards

BERT

Would 4oz cloth be enough over and under?

My interest in this sandwich lamination other than the way it looks is that I just finished my first board and at 20lbs I would like the next on too lose some weight. It"s 11 feet and made with 2 pound eps 3x6 deck 2x6 bottom Gregs’ epoxy. I would like to try lighter foam with some sort of sandwich lamination on the next one.

Joe

the board in the pic has will have 6oz timber6oz on the bottom and 6oz timber 6x6 oz on the deck ,over 3/4 lb eps,finished weight in cedar will be around 14lb for that 9 footer ,but super tough tho…

with the same glassing schedule in balsa i get around 11lb…

i can pull them down to 8lb in a 9’ longboard but thats just for team guys and myself…and i suppose customers who really want the performance …

probably 50% of my customers want the lightest thing i can deliver…

it really sucks when a customer who wants a superlight board ,goes and picks up another board thats not his and its lighter…

it can get random with certain cuts of wood ,there is variation in density even with same type of timber …for example balsa ranges from 80 to 240 kilo per m3 …

that a big variation…sometimes they come out super light even tho we didnt try to make it light…

now when i make my own boards . i weigh hundreds of pieces of wood , and pick out all the lightest choicest cuts…

ill post a pic in few days of a real nice beautifully grained balsa woody ,that you would never suspect is balsa coz of the grain and colours…

it should be done by monday …unless i post it without buffing it…

i cant help myself im sitting in the shop now and just took a snap of a nice 8’ bluff barrel shooter…

check it out …

regards

BERT

Bert – I like your boards… If I were part of the Western A. community I’d like to check you out. Is there a way to view more of your boards via the internet?

Thanks for all of your expert input!

no not really …theres a guy in japan who set up a web site , and was/is selling my boards over there…hes got a few pics ,i havent sold him a board for about 3 years at least…im not really into wholesaling anymore…

all i can do is post pics of boards as they come through the system…we do have plans for an official site late this year early next year…

its long overdue …im getting sick of phone calls from crew wanting to know the web site…its almost embarrising that we dont have one yet , considering the level weve reached with these boards…my specialty is r&d not marketing…

there ya go just pulled a 6’-4" x 18 3/4 x 2 3/8 out of the racks…

regards

BERT

i was almost gonna run out the back and snap that really nice grained longboard …but i will wait till its buffed …

Wow,

Your using a lot of glass plus wood and still getting it light. I know I have no skill as at lamination but wow. Are you vac bagging it?

Joe

theres no other way you can do it …

ive developed some interesting techniques…i was checking out the link oneula posted in the opening comments on this thread…trust me hes doing it the hard way…

just for some details tho …if you do a hand layup on average you use a glass to resin ratio of 6 to 1 if you have 100 grams of glass you need 600 grams of resin to get a decent finish…

ive got glass to resin ratios down to 1 to 1 …the lightest shortboard ive built is 3.9 lb and the lightest longboard ive done is 8.4 lb that longboard is still currently being used by one of my team guys (hes had it a year now and its still alive)(most guys at his level are snaping 20 boards a year at least…), hes taking it to the world titles in a week or so plus one im building him one now with the nice grain…i havent weighed it yet but it feels under 9 lb…ill take a picture of the reading on the scales when its finished …

regards

BERT