working with entropy, super sap eco epoxy

General Discussion
1

hi to everyone

i have checked the archives for info on entropy resins and there is a bit of info but i thought i would start a thread on the day to day working with the resins and using them in a production or home build situation. I do not work for entropy. And i also live in the uk so temperatures are an issue for me.

i am really interested in this product, beacuse of its advancements in environmentaly freindly materials and in performance gains. I have tried many eco freindly alternatives to the standard way surfcraft are made and so far super sap seems to be the best all round, obviously it is not totally eco. But i am looking to make boards that ride similar to standard pu’s but have enhanced performance features and enhanced strength to weight ratio’s, making a partially eco high performance, longer lasting board, is better than making a board which is more eco, but does not last long, or loses its flex return quickly, or is too heavy. This is my opinion at the moment but it could change ?

I am open to everyones suggestions, on all aspects of eco/ bio resins not just super sap.

Some limited knowledge i have gained working with super sap CLR/CLF this is the clear fast hardener, with about 30% bio based material (correct me if im wrong) This is the only super sap i have tried so far. the other epoxy resins i have used are resin research and sp.

 

pros

partly eco-

it has some bio material and this seems to be an aid in performance where it is more flexible but retains that flex return over time.

its epoxy-

epoxy is strong and is only getting better and easier as time goes on.

2-1 mixing ratio -

easy mixing with graduated cups, although i have had issues with temp of resin in the resin container combined with temp when mixing and temp when curing, the changing temps seem a prob for me i need to control it better, right now its way below freezing outside! It has to be mixed well, but its hard to mix and not put air in to the mix? Also i try to mix a few times in one graduated cup. because i dont want to throw away loads of plastic cups.

I will try the pump dispensers has anyone had good results mixing small volumes with the pumps? for dings etc?

laminating-

it wets out great like other epoxy’s and goes a long way, i made a 5ft 1" x 20 x 21/8, port glass, which is a high performance mini sim design i do, i free lapped with two 4’s an one 4 ounce did a cheater coat both sides and sanding coat both sides and some touching up, i still had a bit of resin left from a 1.5 litre pack.

hot coats or should i say cold coats!-

i found it hard to get smooth sanding coats, the resin does not go off quick or ‘hot’ so it fills in and smooth’s off nice when its wet, but still has issues with drainage and fish eye’s, bubbles and general uneven cured surface? i have used additive F and this helps a bit, but i want it to cure quickly but they say to keep the temp under 20 D-C which means it will take about 8 hours before you can sand, and even then can be hard to sand with out gumming etc.

Curing-

i have built an insulated oven now to cure resin quicker because of the problems with the hot coats i have done some lams with super sap and then sanding coated with RR kwik kick, at 32 degrees i can get that to tack off in around half and hour, but prob due to my lack of expereince with epoxy even the RR hot and finishing coats are not coming out great ? any tips?

sanding-

if the resin is cured enough it sands fine like RR if its not its horrible and you cant sand one area for too long as with other epoxys as it softens and warps, the pin holes and uneven surface make it difficult to get a smooth finish with minimal layers of resin. i was hoping to start sanding with a smoother grit but it seems i need to go at it with like 80 to actualy get it to cut with out building up too much heat?

finish coat-

i have not done a gloss coat yet and wont until i can get a good finish on the coating to start with, i was hoping to finish the boards with a kind of gloss coat but it would normaly be sanded instead of glossed, instead of a sprayed speed coat or laquer etc

plugs-

i have not used it for plugs etc i use kwik kick as its normaly boxes in the foam under the glass and i want them to go off quick, so i can glass.

other resins-

i have been making hand planes to test the resins and i have done for example one side in RR KK and the other side in super sap CLR/CLF free lapping you cannot see the join or a difference. i have mixed and matched the lams and hot coats and that seems fine. time will tell if yellowing effect the laps etc.

decals-

seem fine i have only used the inkjet printer type so far and i wouldnt play with them too much, but mine have been ok.

 

bubbles-

i had problems with bubbles it seems it was definately good to wet out nicely and then remove excess if needed when it looked good, the slower you go the better it seems as it wont froth so much. i let it sit there and wet out on its own, if its a complex tail or similar i wet the foam area under then put the glass over and lam as normal. Due to the long cure time i have got everything good then come back to see bubbles and other problems which is annoying i dont want to be stood there watching it dry, hopefully the oven will help with this as i have just made it and not done a full board in there yet. But i am worried about the rising temperature being problematic with the glassing in terms of gassing and lapps, bubbles etc, when the boards in the oven i cant see it or tend to it.

 

foam-

so far its just been pu as i am in the process of getting some hd eps over here its way harder than the states and more expensive.

 

price-

the super sap is $225 bucks for 6 litres over here ,is that 1.6 gallons?

RR kwik kick is $155 bucks for 6 litres

in use-

the board is holding up well but is getting crushed on the tail, this is normall i guess, also the yellowing is not bad at all yet but we dont have much sun ! if someone tells me how to add pics i can try.

sorry for the long winded rant.

 

2

also i have been told i can use normal polyester pigments to tint the epoxy ? i have tried and it kind of goes hard but im not convinced, most people say i should use epoxy pigments ? some people say both pigments are the same ?

i will definately be looking to use tints on most boards with the epoxy.

i have not sprayed under the glass but on top has been fine with a rattle can of acrylic and cellulose clear coat

any input greatly received

3

Regarding fisheyes, I have seen them with many epoxy products during the gloss coat especially.  If you scothbrite with soap and water, then again with water only you should eliminate the problem.  Regarding nice smooth glossy finishes, the best remedy is sand to 1200 grit and buff.  Epoxy products have come a long way.  You used to never be able to get one that was UV stabile.  They are still toxic, but are also getting better and most of the problems come from sanding resins too soon before they are fully cured and of course, not wearing resp protection.  As far as oders go, this is where SAP really shines.  I glassed a board in a spare bedroom in my house and barely knew it was there.  Try doing that with polyester!  I think epoxy is the way of the future and it is also likely that someone will figure out how to make it water based and then we all will be happy. You may want to look into SP systems resins in the UK.  I believe they were the first to come up with UV stable epoxies and also believe they are being sold under other US brands.  You should be able to get better prices.Cheers

4

thanks for the info

i have used sp before will have a look on line for them, i just really want the super sap to be the ONE as its got the bio content to make it cleaner and as you say it does not smell so bad, i hate working over polyester and feeling the fumes absorb in to your pores of your skin !!

 

im having real trouble now with Resin research kwik kick on sanding and gloss coats ! the cured finish is terrible its just as bad if its going over the top of super sap or RR KK so whats going on ? i have had good results in the past ?

does any one suggest warming the resin and hardener before use ? its a real prob here with fluctuating temperatures.

5

whats the theory with scrubbing with water ?

6

Scrubbing with soap and water removes any possible amine blush…  Not all epoxy systems have a problem with this though…

If you glass in room temperatures of  70F  to  80 F  the chances of blush are reduced even with systems known to blush.

I glass in a  75F- 80F room regardless of what epoxy I use…

 

Read more here:

 

VanHelsing.

7

thanks

i do feel a slimy surface on the epoxy when its cured so will have to try a bit of scrubbing !

the thing is with super sap they say you should do coatings under 70F !! But then you want it to cure quickly so it would be nice to up the temp really.

8

well, i have trouble getting KK to flow nicely too, but i am a hack

but still, other RR epoxies flow better, stay less viscous longer, become flat better

only remedy is to heat KK resin part including the F [not hardener] up to 26-28 degrees

mix without making bubbles

pour out asap after 60 sec mixing

touching the resin as little as possible but spreading it real well

dont make it drip onto the bottom mate!

wouter

9

Hi JB,

I’ve recenetly done a board with super sap clr, and am really, really happy with it. I used a Marko 1.9lb blank, sealed with spackle/water mix, and did a shabby chic tempera paint job on it before glassing.

I used a little more resin than I heard others used, but since this was my 1st epoxy in a long time, I know I can shrink my usage next time. Living in Santa Cruz, we get pretty cold working temps, but I only had to warm the resin once. It wet out well, hot coats without any additives we fine, and only had a couple pin holes to fix.

Sanded out fine for a epoxy, and has been as durable as any other I’ve tried. Definitely be using it again, and offering it for customers boards.

seedling

10

good coments

wouter is that the technique you use for glassing and hot coats and gloss coats ? do you warm it with a heater ?

 

rob good to see some labels again i have one of your early ones here for repair some one lent it against a light bulb on a lamp that was on !

did you warm the resin or just the whole room?

did you find it took a while to cure before sanding ?

11

jb,

 

thanks for the kind words. Label is making a comeback, in a new version, of course. Leaning a board on a hot light bulb doesn’t sound too swift!

 

I warmed te resin one time by leaving it on the dash of my car - cold but sunny day - and once by leaving it near a small floor heater i our glossing room. The lam roon has no heat, so it was all ambient temps anywhere from 60-70 those days.

The cure was 3 hours as it said on the tin, although I think I left it in the rack over a sunday before sanding it, but pre-sanding the laps and rails before the bottom hotcoat was easy after 4 hours or so.

I’m using the fast hardener though, don’t see the need for a slow hardener at all really, as the exotherm seems pretty low in comparison.

I’ll definitely order more, and the board is holding up killer in comarison to a similar build Poly.

 

Have fun, and feel free to ask away!