XPS and wetout-table problems: HELP needed

Hi there,

yesterday i had my first try glassing with a wetout table on a XPS-blank. -> absolutely horrible…

I wanted to lay up the wet glass like I have seen it in some videos, e.g.:

 

Nelson Factory Windsurfing Custom Boards No. 08-1 from Nelson Factory on Vimeo.

The first layer worked realy fine and I was realy happy.

However, what wondered me was that the glass didn’t stick to the blank after I pushed the glass down with the squeegee.

Thought that this I ok because of the upcaoming vac-bagging. But i was wrong!!

Laying up the second layer of glass led to pull up the first layer and getting horrible wrinkles into the cloth.

Didn’t had a chance to get them out again. Arrgh…

Decided then to cram it into the vac bag and wait for the result. But my hope is not great, whether it is something good.

An that was just the bottom, top should get 3 layers of glass, a triple chance for horrible wrinkles…

 

Now my questions:

  • can someone tell what to do that the first layer sticks strong to the blank?

  • has anyone an idea how to lay up the glass without wrinkles?

 

Best regards, Andi

watched the video again. 

Now  know at least one mistake. In the video he layed up both glass sheets in one step…

I think, thats the trick…

Forget wetout table, only interesting for vacbag laminate on open support you don’t want to seal before, and/or laminate of light fiber that float in resin. XPS isn’t porous and you use glass. You want your lam to stick to foam, this is resin function so you need a resin rich lam, so no vac bag and no wet out table. A surfboard skin break because of hard ding or buckling, for both skin resistance is mostly a function of overall skin stiffness wich depend of skin thickness either. Why do you want to squeeze you laminate, a thicker “resin rich” epoxy glass laminate skin is good for a surfboard, i don’t say too much resin but a nice not dry laminate: you have to see top of cloth texture, with the frame fill by resin. Resin waterproof laminate and protect from environnement, so you need a resin rich final coat too.

Sorry for frenglish

the xps and the glass are the variables in my experiments :wink:

I’m just very interested in trying other things than the normal shaping/glassing process. Maybe it not always make sense, but it’s a lot of fun!

when you shaped your blank, what grit of paper did you finish it with?

with XPS it needs to be around 100 grit or less so the resin can make a mechanical bond with the foam.

finished with 60 grit

AndiHL,

You did everything right. You’re working too slow, or hardener is too fast for the ambient temp.

Use a little more resin on the table with the first layer. So it goes down a little wetter and sticks better. Then get the 2nd layer wet-out and done right away, before everything gets too tacky.

It helps a lot, to prep table with all layers to be laminated, stacked.

1 sheet plastic, 1 layer glass, 1 sheet plastic, 1 layer glass. Wet the first layer, roll up and transfer to board. Go back to table and tear off dirty sheet of plastic to expose next layer, ready for wet-out.

I can do 4 layers in 85 degree weather with fast hardener. You’ll get there.

 

Although I am not an engineer or an expert, I’ve done a few XPS boards and gradually found the methods that work best for me. finish sand with a rough grit 60-80. instead of using a wet out table I measure out the amount of epoxy needed for my lam, (experience) apply the resin direct to the blank surface then lay the dry (pre cut)  cloth over the wet blank. yes there will be wrinkles and air to work out but epoxy has a long working time so it is doable. I have found this method gives a very good bond between surface and glass and haven’t had any delam problems since I started doing it this way. Downsides are a little extra weight, (comparable to a PU/PE) and a little extra time laminating.

Pre sealing your blank with a epoxy copolymer such as a water based urethane (http://www.lowes.ca/interior-stain/varathane-378-l-water-based-diamond-wood-interior-gloss-finish_9618089.html?af=3632&cse=3632&gclid=CJCb0p3xhsECFRRp7AodnRsAMg) may reduce the amount of epoxy you use and save a little weight. I haven’t tried it yet but plan to on my next board.

 

Cheers

Squeegee some thickened resin on the blank, let that set for a bit, then roll your wet cloth on the board and throw her in the bag.  This will guarantee optimal adhesion and mechanical bond.

On xps, epoxy bond can only be mechanical, coarse surface is better. The glue is resin, you need resin between glass and foam, epoxy is a low to no pressure gluing system, only needed to maintain parts in place. Most epoxy gluing system have a tixotrop agent to keep it in gluing place. Cab-o-sil. Squegge à resin cab-o-sil mix on xps, lay glass and laminate. Standard industrial method. Wet out table is either a standard industrial method, called the poor man prepeg, used for light reinforcement (carbon,kevlar and other plastics fibers) that float over resin (because of their lower density) and/or for laminate on porous support where resin drain. Otherwise is not interesting. Vacuum bag is industrialy use, for lamination, to allow use of autoclave just after lamination (for best curing = predictable composits characteristics) and/or for compacting thick laminate of those light fibers. Need ultra low pressure for lamination. Many sailboards suffer of dry laminate problems. Low resin/fibre ratio is mechanically optimize only for tensil working parts, wich need an exterior protection layer after curing.

Sorry for my frenglish

Thanks for the tip! This will be one of the things that I will definitely do differently.

We settled on a single layer bagged and a hand lam 2nd.

Extra pair of hands helps a lot, too.

Thank you hofnar and lemat!

Squeeged some thickened resin (tixotrop agent) the the blank. Layed one dry layer (large deck patch) of glass on it, pushed it on a little bit.

Then prepaired 2 layers of glass on the wetout table. Worke really fine! Nearly perfect!!

I think after a lot of horror with glassing , this will be my way to go!

 

Best regards, Andreas

 

What is wrong with standard laminating process?

Good old fashioned elbow grease.

If you are wetting out resin and cloth on a table,

there is no resin to soak into foam.

Remember that XPS is closed cell.

Meaning NO absorbtion.

Surface bond with no resin to bond with.

Forget that wetout table crap.

Hand and squeegee.

If you heat the epoxy, it will wet out easier.

What’s wrong with bucket and squeegee? First off, there’s a whole world of better fibers and weaves that aren’t designed to work with 60 year old techniques. There’s a whole lot of other reasons too, but I’m not going to spell them out.