X-cor - “this new core material consists of pultruded pins (carbon, fiberglass, ceramic, etc.) embedded in a foam core (i.e. RohacellTM) carrier”
That sounds a bit like … wood!
Where are those genetic engineers? - stop trying to put goat genes into bananas you bastards and give us some super balsa!
greg…
i haven’t been using any conventional honey comb ,i can only find it in thin sheets …
so ive been making it myself , ive had good success with paper ,but it has its limits ,
the best one yet is glass ,2 oz …
i made a mold ,if you could call it that …once i worked out the right cell size ,i made something that looks like a sheet of corragated iron but is half hex shaped instead of the curved look , then i lay a sheet of 2oz on and wet it out when its dry i peel it off , it looks like a wafer thin hex shaped sheet of that fibreglass sheeting you put on a shed roof to let light through…
then i cut in strips and resin it together so it looks like honeycomb ,sometimes the flat sides dont wanna press up nicely so i have to use a paper clip to hold it in place,sometimes i need like a hundred paper clips…
what i end up with is a flexible honey comb sheet like 2 1/2" thick made from glass and resin ,i did this one real kool test panel with clear glass either side of the honey comb ,but because it was just 2 layers of 6 oz and not a cored sandwich i had to make the cells alot smaller so the glass could span the smaller area with out deforming, that ended up making it 2 heavy to build a board from (when i weighed test panel and calculated its size to a board the board woulda weighed 5kg without fins …)
but it looked real kool ,you woulda had a clear board.with nothing except glass and resin…
regards
BERT
Bert,
Did some homework last night. We have a company in FL that sells a propylene honeycomb that might just work. They also have a proplylene veil that they use to cover so the stuff can be laminated. I’m not sure exactly how that could work. Maybe a wet out table or perhaps just a contact cement to hold it in place while it’s laminated. Either way would be easy. The honeycomb comes up to 4" and is flexible enough to follow a rocker. Because it’s propylene it should be hot wire and planer friendly. The rails could be made of foam or balsa and pre-made in an arch, then attached. Shaping would just be the usual stuff but the fine sand would be a breeze. CNC’s should have no problem either. The cells are somewhat large on this stuff but perhaps they sell different sizes. Also the stuff is white not yellow like Nomex. And it’s inexpensive. I’ll check over the next couple days. I have to work today.
It’s called Nida-Core.
I’ve made a snowboard with it before. It can be heat formed. I made a two piece mold, put the honeycomb in between it, heated it up and it formed to the shape of the mold. It has sealed cells and a veil like Greg said that allows the resin to adhere. It was very inexpensive. In fact, I’m building a skateboard ramp with it right now.
I’m not sure if the heat molding method would work for a surfboard, because you would have to deform the cells significantly to form the foil and rails, and that might affect strength. But if it worked out, you could glass it just like a foam surfboard, since the cells are sealed.
This might end up being heavier and stiffer than a foam surfboard, so perhaps a hybrid application might be better, and just use the honeycomb in areas where you want greater stiffness and strength, and foam everywhere else.
thanks so much guys…
i knew speaking up would be a good idea…
ive just sent them an email , that stuff looks awsome…its just what im looking for…i can see exactly how im gonna use it …
i can see serious potential here …im not gonna be able to sleep tonight dam it…
regards
BERT
ps kenz after rereading your post ,the weight will not be a problem im currently using just over 3/4 lb eps ,nida do a 1lb core …but i should be able to reduce my skin weight to more than compensate ,id say im looking at a lighter and stronger board than im currently doing ,im also predicting that extra air inside the board ,may allow me to lose a little volume and it will still float well …
after reading everybody’s idea, wich most of them sound really good but one thing is coming back to my head… FLEX.
can you get flex out of honeycomb?
everyone wants a really light/strong board but no one is talking about flex.
my question goes to bert or mr Loehr, how can you make a board that is strong but flexible?
i used to build snowboards and my first commercial batch was so stiff,
those boards were the fastest but impossible to control,
would it be the same for surfboards?
is the flex more important than strengh?
afterall it is how the board ride and not only how strong the board is…
maybe both.
can you get flex out of honeycomb?
You can, but it gets complicated. The honeycomb will bend, but by itself, it has a dead flex. What you want is a springy flex, and you get that from the fiberglass and resin skins. With foam you get a springy flex by itself. 2" or more of honeycomb with fiberglass skins would be a very rigid board. You could use less fiberglass, but then you might not get the flex characteristics you want, or the board won’t be very durable. There are other things to try, like using a more flexible resin, like Greg’s more flexible epoxy, or maybe a urethane. Or different skins materials. Or designing the board much thinner in the areas where you want flex. Experimenting needs to be done. One good thing is the plastic honeycomb flexes a little better than the aluminum.
Bert,
Check Nidacore FC. It doesn’t have the skins on it. 1/2 inch runs 100 grams per sq. m. There we go, mixing the measurements again. I like your idea and I think I’m going to try one out myself. As for Louis’ flex question, I personally believe that flex is something you want to minimize. A perfectly stiff board would, in my mind, feel abrupt in the water. But I do think that the boards today have too much and could use some stiffening. Dick Brewer once told me, “the stiffer a board is, the better it rides.” In every other water craft, stiffness is desirable. As you said yourself, it creates speed. I feel that making the board loose should be in the shape. If your board is stiffer (faster) it allows you to use a looser shape. Also, and this is most important, when bottom turning (the basis of performance surfing is the bottom turn) the more speed you have, the more G force your going to be pulling. More G force equals more flex and more rocker. Now I don’t know about anyone else but the faster I go the longer the lines I want to draw, not shorter. More rocker equals shorter turning radius. In this case, flex is working in opposition to what is desirable. I find snowboarding in this case to be vastly different from surfing. Surfing is so much more about creating speed. Snowboarding is more about controlling speed.
The Nida-Core site has a picture of one of Morey’s (I mean "Y"s) “Swizzle” boards on the applications page.
http://www.nida-core.com/application.asp Is he perhaps already using this stuff?
Bert,
Check Nidacore FC. It doesn’t have the skins on it. 1/2 inch runs 100 grams per sq. m. There we go, mixing the measurements again. I like your idea and I think I’m going to try one out myself. As for Louis’ flex question, I personally believe that flex is something you want to minimize. A perfectly stiff board would, in my mind, feel abrupt in the water. But I do think that the boards today have too much and could use some stiffening. Dick Brewer once told me, “the stiffer a board is, the better it rides.” In every other water craft, stiffness is desirable. As you said yourself, it creates speed. I feel that making the board loose should be in the shape. If your board is stiffer (faster) it allows you to use a looser shape. Also, and this is most important, when bottom turning (the basis of performance surfing is the bottom turn) the more speed you have, the more G force your going to be pulling. More G force equals more flex and more rocker. Now I don’t know about anyone else but the faster I go the longer the lines I want to draw, not shorter. More rocker equals shorter turning radius. In this case, flex is working in opposition to what is desirable. I find snowboarding in this case to be vastly different from surfing. Surfing is so much more about creating speed. Snowboarding is more about controlling speed.
Thanks Greg…Ive been debating the flex argument in my mind a lot lately. A weird (perhaps useless) analogy…growing up in florida I rode in boats a lot…stiffer boats are faster…no energy losses due to flex/friction/heat.
btw…I bought a EPS/Epoxy board from you back in 1991 for $350…picked it up at your crib…rode it for 5 years and re-sold it for $200. No blisters or delams. The board sold in one day at the consignment surf shop. How’s that for resale value!
peace waves,
Dave
Howdy Bert, Greg, Kenz, Louis, Pinhead, Miki, Taylor, Larry, Meecrafty and everyone else above who cares. I’ve been off in thick long meetings the last two days working on EVAs, TPUs TPRs, Rubbers etc…so I missed out on this great thread. Y’all are getting real warm here with the ideas. Here’s the fun part; I have all the above materials in stock in my shop. I’ve had non-isotropic Rohacell since the early '90s (Rohacell has many grades, mine is twice as strong in one direction, high temp. resistent, high price), Nida-core since the mid '90’s, aluminum and Nomex honeycomb since 1982, genetically engineered hardwoods for five years, X-core samples five years ago(before it was exposed to civilian industry, someone snuck it to me, it’s from the Airforce and Navy R&D program). It’s a real futuristic product but way too expensive right now, however, I’m working with the Pres. of that company currently to make it more feasible. And Larry, yes, Tom(Y) Morey is using Nida-core on the new Swizzles. I think I gave him their name and number two years ago. He’s making his “leafspring” spine with it, not the whole board. I have a Morey Swizzle in my quiver. He was using Pepcore before, but I told him Nida-core is more experienced with their film/Remay scrim for bonding. Anyway, I think we’re about to see a giant resurection of honycombs in surf. I think Aquajet and W.A.V.E. Hollow scared everyone away in the seventies with product and business plan failures, and of course the satanic word “MOLDED”. I have my wife on a new 9’0" hollow honeycomb board right now. I gave it to her for Mothersday. It weighs less than 10lbs if she remembers to tighten her plug before paddling out. I have some patents pending on this right now. Patents are really stupid though, they are just to fend off the large pirate company who is trying to bust into this industry and make false invention claims. Bert…if you are interested in truly making something big happen with this, call or contact Greg at Resin Research and I’ll contact him and we’ll all connect. I already have the ball rolling on this, but I’m swamped with my core business right now, and would love to work as a team, because making a better board is my passion. Greg can sell a sh*t load of epoxy. Both of you will howl when I tell you my resources. The holy grail is a process that can be mastered by any home builders here with minimal sanding and no blowing agents. I have new fibers also that I can’t discuss yet, but they are stronger than Kevlar, don’t fuzz like Kevlar, bond better than Kevlar, and don’t itch like carbon or glass. Basalt has some real neat properties also, but I think I’m already using most of what is available in Russia right now. I have some super stiff boards and some super flex boards, and they all have certain great qualities. Anyway, so get in touch with Greg if you’re interested Bert and maybe we can accellerate this R&D so we can learn some new ways to surf before we all get old and wilson! Love Delbert Pumpernickel
yea i fully agree that flex is an issue ,so far i havent come close to working flex v strength out in honey comb…
my first 2 were so stiff they were ugly ,with my current eps balsa sandwich boards, you get stiffness but it will bend at high loads ,has a very sensitive feel where you can feel every ripple and know exactly whats happening under your feet ,but also a softness and smootheness , i beleive its a combo of the sandwich for stiffness and the wood for the cushioned ride,…
like i said my first 2 honeycombs were real ugly to ride , felt every bump ,but not in a controlled way ,nothing to dampen the ride , almost like it wanted to buck you off …i didnt get good weights either , i ended up selling one and devoting the other one to science…so i do agree with louis and kenz ,you can have to much stiffness ,
and yes its a balance between strength and performance …and also convenience, my last honeycomb i reckon i nailed the peformance , but it folded on my first surf ,my loadbearing skin was to thin (in an effort for more flex) and once i damaged a few cells it started a chain reaction and it collapsed like a house of cards or dominoes…
you wouldnt beleive the extremes of emotion i went through in 1 hour…
in test panels my last one showed promise ,that was paper honeycomb, but once in the water ,my heels and knees killed it .and now im on the 2oz in test panels ,thats where i thought all the extra tensile strength in the honeycomb would help , looks real promising , but ive stopped it there, so the concept of accessing honeycomb core already done is exciting ,
yes i will get in contact with greg , plus i hope i get a reply from nida ,i asked if they had any aussie reps ?..
i think this one is worth running with , if we get together on it, i can see already we all have something to contribute , surely theres enough brainpower and talent in this place to build something from the bottom up…greg i will email you so i can get some phone numbers…if i cant get any nida in oz i may need you to put a package together for me with your res as well , and ill organise some freight…
ok looks good
regards
BERT
ps the weight of that 1/2" sounds good , the unskined version is definatly what i would be chasing…
do I love this. the farting problems of XPS leads to a brainstorming in sandwich technology. great. and the issue “flex” came up too, a very important part as after making them hard as you will have to bring the fun and control back. now, in the olden days (sorry for going far back again) these problems existed in sailboards and a big company “MISTRAL” was doing a lot of R&D in this field. the flex was put into two categories, a) flex in the bottom curve and b) flex in the rails. they bought all existing patents, the Tinkler Tail (was it Tinker?? I do not rememebr) patents which covered the flexible bottom curve and they bought my patents which covered the flexible rails (no, I did not get enough to spend the rest of my days on the Bahamas). neither was a big sales success for various reasons but the tests were extremely promissing. I do not know about the flex tail patents but mine have run out so everybody can go for it, play and improve.
UDO SCHUETZ (Fanatic) made a 10’ board out of a complete honeycomb core and carbon which was unbelievable light and super strong (and super stiff) and super dooper expensive. to my knowledge the core was shaped as a “flat” blank and curved while glassing. all out there please keep in mind that it is quite easy to build an excellent sandwich board but to create a technology to produce these boards is a different game all together. ask bert, he will know.
If you guys want to put some ideas together e mail me at . I see some great ideas and obviously some talent. I’m working right now on some funding ideas which would move things along nicly, if I can work it out.
i agree with you guys that it would be really nice to have the “stongestboard” but there is a few things that bug my mind: too light will popout of line, will be hard too control and cut the chop, too stiff will act like a car with no shocks, you will feel all the little bump that hit the nose all the way to the tail, you will feel vibration. So what honeycomb ultra light and stiff would help our industry?
for windsurfing it is different, you need stiffness but with surfing it seems like flex can be good so i am thinking that maybe
EPS with no stinger and really heavy glass would do it?
not super technical but nice even flex pattern, easy for the backyard to build, light and super tough??
i surfed the S core in France, i surfed the surftech, i made full carbon boards, and they all felt too stiff…
i think flex bend when you turn and pop you out of them with more speed, anyway, maybe not in pipe or anything ultra fast but for normal everyday waves,
if the surf gets bigger you do want a bit more stiffness,
so get yourself a quiver!
I find snowboarding in this case to be vastly different from surfing. Surfing is so much more about creating speed. Snowboarding is more about controlling speed.
This statement alone is worth thousands of R&D bucks. Its reasonable to assume that snowboard and shaped ski flex is what prompted the S-core concept development. Excellent insight.
Would love to get first dibs for prototype test pilot program…
Regards,
Dave
A BIG issue with all the boards you mentioned Louis, is buoyancy, primarilly in the rail. Rails are supposed to sink into the wave face. If they don’t then you have issues with control. The better a rail “sets” the better your control and the more speed you can handle. And the more drive (speed) a board has. If you realize that the leading high performance proponents (the pros) are generally weighing in at about a buck fifty, you will then you begin to realize that this is where lighter weights are finding a substantial brick wall. All the recent attempts in changing technology have revolved around lighter weights. This, of course, means a more bouyant product that the current diminutive pro has problems with. To quote Pat O’Connell, “I just can’t get the rails thin enough on those (epoxy/polystyrene) boards.” Of course these issues are not appearent in small waves but in anything overhead you begin to need extra control therefore a less buoyant rail. And at the far extreme end, look at what the tow-in guys are doing with their equipment in order to get decent rail set at those speeds. Until we start changing the buoyancy aspects within different parts of the core we will not solve the bouyant rail issues and disposible urethane boards will continue to dominate the pro ranks and probably the custom marketplace as well. The end result of that is more and more foreign invasion into our markets. What’s needed is to use our combined knowlege to produce the $1000 driver. There certainly is a market today that will accept such a product if the performance aspects are worthy.
As for there being a board that’s too light, when I was young my first board weighed 30 lbs. I can remember when they went to 25 many said they were too light. Then when they went to 15 the same thing was said. Then at10 the same, then at 7 the same, now boards are 5-6. There is always a period of transistion anytime weights drop but that transistional period is always followed by a jump in performance. Therefore IMHO there is no “too light”. The perfect weight is probably 0.
Again with stiffness, I’m sure that there can be too much but adding control by lowering the railine buoyancy and building a looser shape in a stiffer composite would, in the end, give you many advantages.
good 2 sea you guys charging forward… Ive always liked stiffness in fins and the board…I think it gives added speed…for feeling the chops …you can smooth that out with very slight roll so you dont loose speed… i find boards that flex bog down in the chops and sometimes freefalling…
greg and cheyne…absolutly agree with everything you both said …and to back up your comments greg about what pat o’connel said …
im 6’ 4" 220 lb and my current shortboard is 1 7/8 thick , plus the deck is concaved…
what works well in eps epoxy sandwich,seems totally absurd in poly p/u contruction…ive had crew who dont ride my boards bag my shapes for years ,because they dont get the point ,that the contruction materials change the performance characteristics,therefore the shapes need to be altered to better suit the materials…
and to tie in another point ,connecting louis’s comment about stiffness and cheyne’s point about stiffness and roll…
i have a 7’ 8" pintail gun , super stiff ,super light , weighs 2.4 kg or 5.3 lbs …
some of the stuff ive done on that board in 8 ft surf in our northwest and southwest ,is etched on my brain forever…the shape is set up for those condititions.tight pin ,carries the softer rail into the tail so it hugs the face and grabs the face well on free fall drops, has smaller fins set closer to the tail,has thin rails that are buryable at high speeds…
i can see your concerns louis if you look at conventional shapes in new materials , but guys like greg , myself and a few others whove been pushing new materials for years , are past those issues and dont even see them as a problem…as for to light ,i dont think there’s to light…less weight more control…
and yea greg i sent an email so ill ring you next week…also greg i think to get honeycomb working well ,we need to go more extreme than what weve done in eps…
regards
BERT