Hey Greg
You gotta get your resin available in Oz
You will have a lot of intrest here
Cheers
Seabase europe NZ and Oz reckon they deal in RR resins. http://www.seabase.eu/
And check these out - hmm
In 4-night class I teach at a local community college, we use RR exclusively, with Add F, per your specs, and X-55 on nights we have to flip it quickly. On the third night, we glass the deck (2 layers of 4oz) and just over an hour later, we’re flipping to hotcoat the bottom. We use 1cc of X-55 per oz of mixed material, and get it out of the pot quickly. If you do that, you’ll have plenty of time to laminate, even if you’re a beginner. If you don’t get it spread out quickly, you’ll be mixing up more resin and running a smoking pot outside in a hurry!
How about adding pigment or tints? At what point do I add it?
For example: Should I mix the pigment with the epoxy first, then add the hardener and additive F?
Or, mix the epoxy,hardener, add F and then the pigment?
Or, mix the epoxy, hardener, pigment and then add F?
I don’t know about pigment, but I’m pretty sure about this:
Resin
F
Mix
Hardener
Mix
Use
I started with RR and F per Sway’s and Greg, and I haven’t had any problems. I measure by volume in 4oz graduated cups. I always use F and haven’t had sanding/lap adhesion issues. And, I don’t have to worry about volitile organics.
You obviously haven’t been reading the magazines. All this ‘‘new tech’’ is over, all the big names are back to poly because it’s so much better. (snicker, snicker)
Get with the program! ; )
Glad to see you guys understand the additive thing. Versatility rules. I could never go back to the old ways. Making the resin do what you want when you want. A bit of complexity … it’s part of the craft. I don’t want a craft that’s been dumbed down so everybody gets mediocre results. I want the good guys to get great results. That’s why I come here … I get to see guys get great results.
You know, I tried to dumb it down, years ago. But the good guys revolted … they wanted the control over their own product. They were right. So we began to structure what we do differently … we wanted them to control the results, not us.
So Additve F comes along. Don’t use it for ultimate carity. Use 1% for laminates to ensure next layer bonding, to reduce pin air, improve wetting and sanding. Use 2% in very hot, humid conditions and for glossing. Pretty simple … great results.
And then X-55. Use it in cold climates to improve set times and hot coat quality. Use it in production to shorten flip times and improve cycle times. Use it when you need it don’t when you don’t. The amount you use can range from 3% to 6%. Use it as you see fit. Can be added by batch or pre added to the hardener. Take your pick. Effective accellerator offering great results.
We’re striving to be craftsmen here. Craftsmanship is something to shoot for, even in a garage. The info to make extrordinary surfboards is right here. Use it.
Yes polyester, so much better… not!
we’re just a little company doing our own thing, but a good internet bashing from you certainly makes us feel like we’ve moved up a notch.
Best of luck to you,
Rob
ps the word you’re looking for is stoichiometry.
polyester is great resin to make boards with. looks ten times better. colour and swirls, clears and doesnt go yellow like the resin research board i did…
its not the materials its the shape
surfers dont actually care. they want white boards with stickers and fcs fins
thats what they want. if you want to make business dont tell your customers what they want. let them tell you what they want and make it for them. most guys want to get a new board every 3 to 6 months. i know i do.
i think all the new materials info is kinda crap really. you can glass a composite board in polyester. its cheaper and lasts as well on a composite board. a composite board is strong no matter what resin you use.polyurethane is a good foam for composite boards , you can laminate a sandwhich skin on the deck and glass the outside with poly
I have only met you a couple of times, Greg, but found we had a lot in common. You’ve stuck with you business for as you say 30 years, taken alot of shots along the way. Good for you, I respect that and you have a right to be proud of that effort.
So you chose to take your cheap shots and make so many total misstatements about our product it makes my head spin on sways. I don’t take it personally, you’ve done it before in your rants on polyurethane, polyester, other resin companies and now us. That’s your style, fine. It’s tough economy and you’re trying to make a buck. I get it. You and I both know how big the surfboard epoxy pie is and you still have the largest slice. I guess you just want the whole pie. Seems like you tend to agree with the Clark business model of dominating a small market to take some advantage of economy of scale. It is appealing from a strictly business standpoint and so what if friendly competition falls by the way side. I could get all bent out shape over your comments and think that people might read them and not try Greenroom epoxy, but if people were really paying attention to your rants they would have stopped making boards with polyurethane and polyester a long time ago. So, we’ll take our chances and keep doing what we do. In other words, I think most people are smart enough to realize that there is a not so hidden agenda in your remarks.
I told myself that I wouldn’t take the bait and get into one of the swaylock back and forths and I will refrain somewhat, but you flatter yourself if you think we have ever tried to make a copy of your product. Why would we bother? We didn’t get into to this to compete with an established product by making a copy the same product. We have better things to do with our time than that. In fact, we got into it because we are passionate about building surfboards and want to make the best possible. I glassed my first board with epoxy in 1990 and in fact used your resin (I think it was a 3:2 stoichiometry at that time). That was the first and only time I have personally used it. I saw its limitations and since I was a chemist working in the family adhesive business at that time, I began formulating my own epoxy. You saw its limitations too and continued to make the changes you did. I just chose to go down a different path, making my own epoxies for my own use, working out the kinks in the process. The timing and people were right a few years ago to bring those years of experience to the market. So, the point of this internet self-gratification is to let you know that can keep thinking we are a knock off if you want, but I’ve been on the other side of the curtain for a long time and not someone who can’t tell the difference between a primary amine and an amide or the benefits of steric hindrance. If we really wanted to make a copy, we would, but we don’t. Same with the super secret additive F, but I chose not to work with xylene and that other stuff. If people want to use it, it’s not going to hurt anything, but it is only really necessary in your product.
So now I’ll show some restraint and sign off as we have a little wave and I have a new board to try out.
Rob
hey rob
any tips about epoxy?? good gloss coats maybe?
wouter
Does the clear RR epoxy yellow?
Ditto that, I’d love to get some tips on epoxy glosses. Shoot, you want to corner a market, come up with formulation which will polish out like a poly gloss. That’s a “better moustrap” right there!
I’ve used both epoxies mentioned here, and definitely see advantages to both of them. The big thing I really liked about the greenroom stuff is the sanding. It just sands amazingly well, even better than a well-cured RR with add F. Not only that, but it could be sanded almost as soon as a poly would have. Initial viscosity is great, very thin, but it did seem to thicken up just a little bit fairly quickly. I also liked the fact that it didn’t require any extra additives, but the blue stuff (uv inhibitor?) did settle out of it after a while.
I’ve been using RR exclusively since I started with epoxy with the exception of a 3-gallon trial of greenroom. One of the things I like about RR is the predictability- it seems like a more linear curve in the way that the resin thickens up. A bit thicker right out of the pot, but no jumps in viscosity, so it seems (subjectively to me, no scientific measurement used) to give a longer useful time where it can completely wet out glass without any micro-slivers of air trapped in fiber.
Honestly, the above mentioned differences were notable, but not even close to deal-makers or deal-killers in themselves. It was all stuff I could work around. What finally sent me back to RR for good is that fact that every board I do goes in a vacuum bag. RR releases perfectly cleanly from my nylon release film as soon as the remaining resin in the pot is tack-free. Greenroom stuck to my release film like crazy, no matter what I tried (Add. F, overnight cures, heat), and made a reusable component of my setup (release film) into a disposable. I could have tried some other materials for bagging/release film, but I have my process pretty well dialed at this point, and I just didn’t see a real advantage to tracking down the necessary changes.
If I had unlimited resources, I’d probably use RR for bagged stages and laminations, and use Greenroom for sanding coats. I think that would be an ideal application of both of their strengths. At this point, it’s not really practical for me to be getting my resin from multiple sources though, so I have to stick with the one which makes my life easer with regards to vac bagging.
The differences between the two for regular laminations are subtle, and could certainly fall into the category of personal preference. I’d encourage everyone to try them both and see which works better for them. Rob and Greg are both exceptionally knowledgable about their products, and enthusiastic sources of product support. I’d venture to say that there really isn’t a wrong choice between the two of them.
It has been my experience that what yellows on an RR epoxy glassed board is not the epoxy but the foam.
I assume the UV inhibitors are to protect the foam from discoloration not the epoxy.
CJ
Your the one running around the nation badmouthing. I’m just kinda over it. You need to find another angle to sell product than to put ours down. I’ve run the tests and I know the truth. I can twist lab tests to make others look bad too, but I don’t.
Why are your customers buying Additive F if you don’t need it?
Exactly. CE resin, in our tests, has faired better than 2000 because all foams are somewhat sensitive. Urethanes especially. But even EPS will discolor with time.
2020 is actually a better resin for sanding. Many many shops in CA use the 2020 for hot coating because it’s just a taste softer (more flexible). For my money though good sanding starts with good sandpaper and not resin choice. And for Compsands 2020 might be the call as well because the strength is in the makeup of the comopsite and has less to do with the resins. Slightly lower viscosity is going to give you slightly better weight too.
Polishing an epoxy gloss coat comes down to sanding finer before polishing. Sand to 1500, then polish and your looking at a mirror. I’ve also suggested here many times that for glossing 2040 is a better material. It will polish better and flows better during the gloss.