I don't know much about quads, but I want to learn. Just answer any questions you feel inclined to, I realize these are probably irritating questions to the quad experts.
I ordered a quad set of probox fins/plugs from foam e-z. This is what I got. Which is cool - the bigger ones up front, right? The layout is from Greenlight's website.
So - is this just a standard size of fin setup? This board is 6'6", will the same fins work on a 7-3 egg? How come some quads I see have all four the same size, and some have two larger and two smaller, like these?
What is the rationale of bigger fins forward vs. smaller fins forward vs. all four the same size?
Also, what would happen if you substituted sidebite fins for the smaller quad fins?
I realize a lot of what I'm trying to figure out could be arrived at by trying all the options. Which I plan on doing, but I first want to get some kind of background or overview, to help me understand how changes in layout affect the ride.
Also, one last question: Why is it some quads seem like the fins almost overlap (from a side view), others, like mine, have a definite gap between the fins (from the side).
yes usually the bigger ones are up front, if you put the smaller fin up front it would be more considered a twinzer, which you would use a smaller front and larger rear. usually one fin is for drive the other is for pivot but not always the case. its more about your preference and feel. side bites instead of smaller rears will offer less hold probably less drive. and fins like this depend on actual fins and placement some fins like the controller quads for instance are put a bit closer in the cluster compared to sideites which are placed on the back of the base.
Can anyone spell can o’ worms. People have filled pages and pages (and pages) here on debating the pros and cons of the various quad setup alternatives - some of it enlightening, some of it dross. Allocate about a week and a half to reading it all and you’ll come out of it slightly shellshocked, but a wiser man for the experience.
As Chippy would say - test them out and give us a ride report. It’s all very well to ask others what they do, but the only real way to find out is to get on ‘em and see for yourself. I’ve never ridden a quad myself, but I must admit I’m pretty intrigued. So much so that I’m in the process of shaping a 6’ x 21-ish x 2 1/4-ish number right now, which is going to get a McKee quad setup.
Get out there and on it Huck and let us know how you go.
i have been riding both 3 and 4 for a fair bit of time now
not riding em much in real good surf unfortunately though, i live in holland
i also came out fairly shocked, the difference between the hanalei fin set up of robin mair [good man] and mckee [good man] is huge, though they both design boards for good waves. mckee has fins near stringer/center of board and mair on the rail, like 1 inch off and 1 inch off.
Why McKee chose to have them on the inside is unknown to me, i DO know i converted my 6ft3 coil surfboard to a quad with the mckee set up and it surfs great!! It gives more hold after a turn, or during extreme manoeuvres than the rail finned option - IN MY OPINION
it talks about the distance between trailing edge of front fin, and leading edge of back fin being only 3/8 of an inch, so how far are yours apart huck?
i read a good comment on the Arakawa site yesterday:
**QUAD**
This is our modern four fin design. From the deck the board looks like a conventional tri fin with a slightly wider tail, but the difference is obvious when flipped over. Our four fin concept takes the tri fin set up and “splits” the rear fin from one fin in the middle to two fins on the rail. By moving the back fins over to the rail we increase the amount of force that can be applied to the turning rail, which translates to more bite and drive through the turn.
Well Huck - If I answered all your questions it would only be my opinion based on my own experience. Most of what the others said.
I first tried a McKee type set up and liked it. Then I tried a Mair type set up and loved it.
I think you can adjust the spread on your fins - fore/aft. That makes a huge difference. I started @ 1" - less was a little to loose/squirly, and over 1 1/2 and I could start to feel the drag of the rear fins. With adjustable boxes you can try a bunch. I like my toes side @ 1" and my heel @ 1 1/2"
Thanks for the replies, excellent info! I'm sure it is a can of worms, and only opinions, pretty much like everything else we discuss here LOL. Opinions are really all I'm after (part of the magic of surfboard design is that there is no only and final answer on anything).
Basically, what has worked / not worked for you, and why - in other words, a ride report from those who have done it already. I'll be happy to add my two cents' worth, once I have something worth two cents to say. BTW, I have been searching, reading, bookmarking and re-reading all the quad threads I could find, for quite awhile now.
Talking with surfers here on Swaylocks, and on the beach, I find some are really stoked on quads, others not so much. The ones who are stoked talk about speed, drive, skatey-ness, and ability to lay a board on rail, and thats what has me interested.
I suspect fin size shape and placement are even more critical than other fin setups because of the increased possibility of interaction combinations between all the factors. Then there is always board shape, type of wave, and rider preference too.
I'm thankful for guys like Greenlight and McKee who put their findings, including specific dimensions, out there for all to see. It is a great help to have that information, even if only as a starting point, especially for us quad-newbees!
I agree with the speed, skate and hold on rail for quad. But when you slam that lip hard and you have a wide tailed board with rail finned quad, it wont hold as good as the centre fin in a thruster. It is more of a specific type quad than mckee, who i feel is more versatile, user friendly [even for advanced surfers] you dont need to surf the rail or narrow tail all the time…
I always prefered narrow tail anyway, and gave up lip smacking ages ago…
What I find the most noticable difference between my edge tight set up is the speed. And, the speed comes in, what I found, the most interesting way. I can hold a steeper, deeper, higher line on my quads than on my tri’s - and some of my experience comes from the exact same board when I added the rear side boxes. I rode very similar waves on both and when I pulled up front side into the pocket on a tri after riding a quad, I could totaly feel the breaking action of the center fin - same wave, same board - would not go as steep and high. Back side I made waves that had passed me by on the tri. I also have quite a bit of kick in the tail to help with turning, and I think I’ll go with a little more through the fins next time.
Where you stand on a board makes a big difference on how the board turns. Probably more than the fin setup. You can make a stiffer board turn better by standing further back on the tail. You can make a loose board a bit stiffer by standing forward of the fins, widening your stance, and staying in a lower crouch.
Drive and hold are affected by rail shape, fins and location.
I don’t agree with the graphic above. I have been riding quad boards for about 6 years. I have used Stretch’s FF4 setup, McKee’s, Jeff Alexander’s Gemini, Greg Griffin’s and Robin Mair’s setup.
My boards with Robin’s setup has the fins 1" from the rail and pretty close fore and aft (pic 3). The board has tons of drive and hold, and it will turn sharp if you stand over the fins. It will also continue to glide well after finishing a turn. My Griffin boards have the rear fins slightly further back but still closer to the rail. Same ride characteristics.
The Gemini is closer to how McKee set’s up the quad with the rear fins about evenly spaced from stringer and rail. The board has a lot of drive and hold, but it’s a bit stiffer. It’s not as loose as the Griffins or the boards with Robin’s setup. Guy’s used to tri-s will like this more. I like the way the quad will run out further and longer after a turn. I like to go fast and the quads seem to be very fast. I use reasonably large fins, so the boards don’t slide out. If I put in smaller fins the boards can get quite a bit loose.
I prefer twin fins, and the best quad setup for me was all rail fins, further up from the tail, big fins in front, smaller in rear, almost overlapping. Fast n loose.
Tricky question Huck, Scarllet johanssen, or penelope cruz type question really!
The Griffins have fish tails 6-0, 6-5, the Gemini has a squash type 6-4, I have several round pins with Robin Mair’s setup and hammer fins 6-4, 8-0, I also have a couple of square tails with McKee’s setup 6-6, 5-11. My boards are all between 20.5" and 21.5" wide.
All the boards except the Griffin boards have normal width tails, or what you’d expect on a single or thruster. I have posted pics of all of these boards here somewhere in various posts.
I don’t care about typos, or grammar. This is not a writing class, if it was I wouldn’t be here.
hey jbls - I suggest you start a new thread with Griffin quads in the title, since his setup is kinda proprietary to his boards, at least in actual practice, so specific questions on Griffin quads might never even get noticed by the casual observer to the forum.
I think someone did try to get a thread going here, or might have been on the ERBB (surfer mag forum), and his daughter came along and in the spirit of her late dad, spread a little negativity on the topic of continuing or discussing his work. But for backyarders working on their own projects (not for profit) there are no rules or laws prohibiting it. And even for a pro, I really doubt his designs are copyright protected.
I think its SharkCountry or one of the other Swaylockians who did have a few of his boards. And probably a lot more on the ERBB.
I have a 6’ and a 6’ 2" 5 fin fish boards. They are his original 5 fin fish not the mod fish. I’ll measure the fin placement on these tomorrow. The fins were made special for each board, but I’ll measure them and take pictures. He made the fin tabs smaller so the fins could be moved about 1/8" and he drew a mark for where they could be moved to. I miss Greg, he was an interesting guy. He was getting things set up to be able to come over to Oahu and make boards several times a year.
I have a 6’ 5" mod fish, but it’s wrapped up and stored somewhere under my house. My brother has the same board at his house, I’ll try to remember to measure the fin placement when I go to see him again. I think my brother put his 8’ big fish and 9’ 5 fin longboard in storage.
I still haven’t tried the board with the fins inverted. The waves where I surf have been too small for me to ride that board. I’m hoping we get bigger waves before the south side goes to sleep.
I picked up stickers from the 2 oldest board makers here on Oahu the other day and will send them to you.
I measured the boards. The fin sizes are the same on both boards, the front fins have a 4 1/2" base and are 4 1/2" tall, the rear fins have a 3 1/2" base and are 3 5/8" tall. I shot a photo to show the shape.
One board is 6’ 2" x 21" x 2 7/8" the tail is 9 3/4" tip to tip, the back edge of the rear fins are 4 3/4" from the tip of the tail, and the back edge of the front fins are 10 3/4" from the tip of the tail.
The other board is 6’ 0" x 20 3/4" x 2 3/4", the tail is 9 1/2" tip to tip, the rear fins are 4 7/8" from the tail and the front fins are 10 3/4" from the tail.
Both boards have tucked under rails from nose to tail.
There’s a dot at the back of the rear fins. Greg said we could move the fins back if we wanted, but I leave them in the original position. I have never tried riding his boards as a quad, I always ride them with 5 fins. They have incredible hold, and when you get your back foot in the right spot the board is amazing. I haven’t ridden the 6’ 0" for years, and I rarely use the 6’ 2". I’ve been riding mid lengths and the thicker short boards I’ve made. I only use the Griffins when the waves are really good, but for the last several years the crowds have been terrible when it gets good, and I have a hard time getting waves. I tend to use the mid lengths to get in early.
I made a 5’ 11" double ender quad and I used the fin layout from the 6’ 0". I had a lot of fun with that board, but I haven’t used it for years.
Thanks sharkcountry!
Since the fin threads are diluted all over space and time anyway I guess it’s ok to just follow up here.
I remember Greg Griffin posted some short theses or questions that were supposed to get people thinking.
I remember the one where he said:
Areas loss from the wide point.
As far as I know- which is little , I never saw a board, fin or the person himself- his fin outline is based on this principle: diminishing cord lengths from base to tip.
When looking at the Horan fins I see the same .
Anybody has an anecdote ( Hi Huck ) why?
) why?