I see one hand,is that it!(Steve Page, you are the start of a new generation). This is a continuation of my post below in the “copy” thread.Herb.
Yes, I have copied or at least poorly copyed boards for my OWN USE. I will never be building boards for others. The day job pays mucho better. If you build your own boards you know it is not to save money. In fact the first few boards will be about the some cost as if you bought them. In between time, materials and mess it is much better to buy a board. You build your own board because it is in your spirit. It feels great riding your own stick! PRIDE! The only board in which I did not copy some one elses is me favorite board. It might not be pretty but it sure does ride great. Anthony>>> I see one hand,is that it!(Steve Page, you are the start of a new > generation).>>> This is a continuation of my post below in the “copy” > thread.Herb. http://www.viser.net/~anthwind/
all this talk about copying got me psyched to draw some new templates. made an 8’0" fun gun, inspired by the other posts about desert island/fun guns. i want something different to ride and surf the longboard spots my girlfriend likes in summer. 12"n x 21"c x 14"t, maybe 2 5/8th" thick, thinking from an 8’0"R blank. i like the idea of a board that surfs both ends of the scale, 1-3’ mush and 10’+ bombs, yet still has a shortboard feel. anyway, i plotted out my points and used a 6’10" template for some of the nose section, a 7’2" for the shoulder/center area, and an 8’0" egg for the tail area. each one in a different color pencil, then blended/tweaked with nails and long fiberglass sail batten(thx herb). cut out, sanded, all in all it took about 30 minutes. i just finished my 20th board and it seems like after a dozen or so boards there’s no real need to trace outlines.i did it for my first couple boards, from boards i’ve purchased, but i can’t see a justification of it after the initial attempts.i think if a guy who builds a couple boards a year traces an outline, big deal, but for a pro or even aspiring one it’s pretty weak.
From my surfboard building web site, the most asked question is were can I buy templates to make a board. If someone put together a few sets of their OWN templates. It could be a little business. You would think that JC makes more money from his videos than making boards. http://www.viser.net/~anthwind/
I’ve done plenty of boards with no template. I scale up a drawing and plot some full size dimensions directly on the blank. I basically connect the dots, cut it out, tune it with a longblock and coarse sandpaper. When it looks right, I have a nifty “zero center” ruler that allows me to transfer the dimensions from one side to the other by lining up the zero on the stringer (Pleskunas sells a similar tool.) It takes a while but it works.
So far I have yet to find a descrete way to whip out the Fat Max tape measure without the sales kid on the other side of the board catching me, but they do provide a straight edge so I can check out bottom contours. With the contours I’m just looking for ideas in placement and depth on boards similar in length to the one I’m making; I don’t believe thats copying. Anywho, out of my four self made boards I’ve havent copied any (doing that may give me a decent board). I just try to think of a shape and measurements that will float my fat ass. Then put em on swaylocks, hopefully get a bite and some input and then BREAK OUT THE FISHING GEAR! (Thanks for that one Herb!) Don’t tell my wife, but Anthony’s right with the tools and supplies the savings won’t be there for a few more boards. Making a board is alot more fun than buying one and finding out it doesnt work for you.
i worked with a guy who traced a pizza tin for the nose of a board he was making. i don’t think little tony was too upset about it and the board rode nothing like the pizza tin (my personal impression is that it probably rode worse). it takes a lot more then a curve to make a good board. plot 'em, trace em, use a fishing pole, use bender board, make yourself a huge french curve, whatever. everybody has there own methods. most shapers have their own shaping style that makes their board unique. that’s the real pleasure of an artistic process such as shaping. back to the original post by “a”. after all, he was just aking for our opinions. my opinion is that scanning someone else’s shape would definatly fall under the category of “copying”. i think most people would have pretty hard time rationalizing that one.
My point is,if someone is going to get that bent out of shape(pardon the pun)about a beginner asking to pull a template,then that shows me a lack of"ALOHA". I WAS TAUGHT TO HAVE MANNERS,AND TO ASK FOR THINGS THAT I WANT OR NEED. If the answer is no, accept it,and go on to the next goal.If the answer is yes,then thank them kindly. But if your salesman are acting like they are the s##t and pass a bunch of attitude to someone that has a innocent,and honest question/ request,then in the long run you will be the one that will lose out. We for the most part, all copy each other. This is what progression is about,standing on the shoulders of past technologies,and ideas.Herb.
i worked with a guy who traced a pizza tin for the nose of a board he was > making. i don’t think little tony was too upset about it and the board > rode nothing like the pizza tin (my personal impression is that it > probably rode worse).>>> it takes a lot more then a curve to make a good board. plot 'em, trace em, > use a fishing pole, use bender board, make yourself a huge french curve, > whatever. everybody has there own methods. most shapers have their own > shaping style that makes their board unique. that’s the real pleasure of > an artistic process such as shaping.>>> back to the original post by “a”. after all, he was just aking > for our opinions. my opinion is that scanning someone else’s shape would > definatly fall under the category of “copying”. i think most > people would have pretty hard time rationalizing that one…HEY GENE,I still use a plastic lid off a coffee can to make the inside curves of my swallowtails.Maybe Folger’s will come after me.Herb.
…and it’s hard to find a good trash can lid with all these square green trash cans they have now. my trashman used to give me the eye 'cause he knew what i was up to.
…and it’s hard to find a good trash can lid with all these square > green trash cans they have now. my trashman used to give me the eye 'cause > he knew what i was up to. Well Said!
I see one hand,is that it!(Steve Page, you are the start of a new > generation).>>> This is a continuation of my post below in the “copy” > thread.Herb. After all the discussion on “copying”, pro and con, I though it might be useful to actually define some of the terms, in spite of the fact that we`re probably all guilty in one sense or another. My sincere apologies to all moral relativists for resorting to hitting below the belt: ORIGINAL (adjective): 1. completely new, and so not copied or derived from something else. 2. possessing or demonstrating the ability to think creatively. 3. representing a departure from traditional or previous practise. 4. relating to or being something from which a copy or alternative version has been made. ORIGINAL (noun): 1. the first or unique item from which copies or alternative versions are made. TO SHARE (verb): 1. to have or use something in common with other people. 2. to allow somebody to use something or have part of something. TO SHARE (noun): 1. a part of something that is owned by, paid for by, done by, or set aside for each of several people. TO ALLOW (verb): 1. to give permission for something to happen or somebody to do something, or take no action or make no rule to prevent it. 2. to let somebody or yourself have something, often a benefit or pleasure of some kind. 3. to give or credit somebody with an amount of money as a discount or in exchange for something. AGREEMENT (noun): 1. a contract or arrangement, either written or verbal and sometimes enforceable by law. 2. the reaching or sharing of the same opinion that somebody or others hold. 3. a situation in which everyone accepts the same terms or has the same opinion. 4. consent, or an answer of yes. COPYING (noun): 1. lifting, stealing, illegal use, breach of copyright, bootlegging. PLAGIARISM (noun): 1. copying what somebody else has written or taking somebody’s else’s idea and trying to pass it off as original. 2. something copied from somebody else’s work, or somebody else’s idea that somebody presents as his or her own. PERMISSION (noun): 1. agreement to allow something to happen or be done. CONSENT (noun): 1. authorization, go-ahead, agreement, acquiescence, okay, say-so. APPROPRIATION (noun): 1. the taking or using of something without permission. MISAPPROPRIATION(noun): 1. misuse, fraud, stealing, cheating.
coffee can lids, trashcans, i love it!
I think you missed one BULLSHIT To think someone could make an exact copy of a board and pass it off as an original is bullshit. I can,t see anyone who has made more than a few boards not using their own ideas and ending up with a board that is a composite of many different boards. The guys who post on Swaylock,s do not strike me as copycats but rather innovaters who make boards that are different from the one in vogue. I feel boards mass produced with computer shapers or gost shaper and then sold as originals are more of a fraud.
Funny ,You make a big laugh this morning Ha…Like a 1957 stratocaster you can make one that looks like it but it will never feel or sound like the original. Yes you have computers now doing templates, rocker so all you new age shapers do is turn rails, this will cut all of your pay someday. Maybe BurgerKing will have an H.B. model then McDonalds…Sorry guys I.d rather get my paintings from an artist where each is a one of a kind original.,Nuff Said…For all you Stan Lee followers.
The context of “a’s” question has to do with going into a surfboard builders main retail outlet , the surfshop, and laying down the tracing paper and disrespecting the craftsman’s own time honored experience. As we see here , most all of the posted messages agree that “everyone” copies others designs from one degree or another. I get the feeling that the message is that it is OK to do it because we all do it. I think that it has to do more with respect , integrity ,and one’s own personal responsibility. There are many ways to accumulate knowledge , and certainly, coping is, to an extent , flattery. To me, it’s mostly in how you choose to go about your work. In my profession , I often draw ideas from the masters , or others who have delved deep into there own designs. I do get inspiration from many other people , but I do try to do a lot of work from my memory, by looking and thinking about how I would like to get similar results with my own spin or originality. I hardly ever put a tape measure down to scale out the details. It is ones hard work that gets results . Be inspired from within. Another good thread! Thanks.
Just recently,Rabbit asked if I could help him with dimentions on my Supercharged 6’-1" fish,which I was glad to do…I even went as far as to send him a heavy paper template with fin placements,rail contours,foil,rocker,and so on…I even paid the shipping(Aloha,Rabbit). A year ago or so,Bob O. owner of Boss Surfboards took a template off one of my boards at a mutal friends House(DavO).DavO called me one night and stated that Mr. Kennedy took the lines while he was showering,and was stunned that he did it w/o asking.Dave apologized,and asked if I was pissed off at him or BobO.I said no,it would have been nice if he would have asked first,but I could have cared less,infact I was flattered that of all the lines he could have used he took mine. In my eyes it’s not yours until you give it away first.Herb.
yeah, the square ones are for squash tails.>>> …and it’s hard to find a good trash can lid with all these square > green trash cans they have now. my trashman used to give me the eye 'cause > he knew what i was up to.
This is a really interesting topic…I have only completed 2 boards so far, but I am very happy with both. I traced the nose and tails of several of my own purchased boards and have used these mini templates in a combination to create totally new (good or bad?) shapes. Since my shaped boards look nothing like the boards the templates came from, they’re not even the same size, I wouldn’t consider this copying, I basically just needed a curved line. I am pretty sure that most boards are created in this manner.
the salespeople… thats a WHOLE other topic. so many times i’ve walked into a shop where some kid my age has stickers on his board and thinks he’s a hotshot and tries to sell me a board he knows nothing about. it’s ridiculous. how about hiring people with SOME knowledge of surfboards; construction, design… whatever. just SOMETHING. PS: in regards to the whole copying thread… ive never copied a board or traced and outline. but of course i get ideas from other boards. if i see a board i like out in the water or in a shop i check out the dimensions and curves, etc, and incorporate the things i like about the board into my next design. i dont know if that’s copying, i think its just and influence of a certain board. especially since i will, like im sure many others do, combine aspects of numerous boards to create one new shape.>>> But if your salesman are acting like they are the s##t and pass a bunch of > attitude to someone that has a innocent,and honest question/ request,then > in the long run you will be the one that will lose out.>>> We for the most part, all copy each other.>>> This is what progression is about,standing on the shoulders of past > technologies,and ideas.Herb.