Are Consumers Getting Greedy?

Industry Talk
41

"and Charles Shaw stated that if he "had known his name would be used in this manner, he would never have sold his name".

Sounds like sour grapes to me for someone else's success and vision."

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That's the problem with selling yourself and your name...the downside of branding yourself. Skip Frye seems to be the best current example of somebody who held onto the cosmic "it".

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" But if it comes down to cheap product and trying to sell the most of it without regard or concern given to anyone else in the business, and IF I wanted to be the Darth Vader of all surfboard manufacturers,"

Geez, beautiful scenario of how to do it. A (perhaps slightly evil tinted...;-) ) primer for profitable modern domestic surfboard manufacturing, as memorable as Doc's thing about running a surf shop. There's something in there that shouldn't get lost though...

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"If one market was slow another could provide relief, and so on. The eggs would not be in one basket."

That's a secret for all smaller businesses to apply, a great survival strategy.  Have something to do in the downtime. I think I recall Bill Barnfield saying he has a bicycle shop? Think of that concept. When there is no surf or surf season there is bicycle season...perfect example.

Between that, quality,  and an understanding and committment to good communication from supply chain through customers the smaller builders should have a chance to survive hard times and thrive in the better days.

42

“the smaller builders should have a chance to survive hard times and thrive in the better days.”

I wholly agree with this. To think that all the innovation comes from the big surfboard manufacturers is ridiculous. I’m not saying that you stated this, I’m just making the point that as an industry that attracts many creative and artistic people, the penchant for some to turn the industry into a mass produced, stamped out toy manufactured kind of approach is not only insulting to many of us, but promotes stagnation.

It’s one thing to enjoy greater productivity in the abilty to create successful one offs that can be turned into what I term"production customs" and quite another to prostitute one’s self in an attempt to establish a retirement fund. Mind you, this direction is nothing new, there were ‘sellouts’ in the 60’s and there will be sell outs in the future, with anyone and everyone debating for all time what the term means for each and everyone of us.

I supplied a scenario in my previous post that, to quickly paraphrase it, says…“okay, screw everyone, I’m just gonna be a lone wolf with no solidarity toward anything purist and develop a chopper gun approach and screw everyone”.

Do I owe anyone in this industry anything?

Would the guy down the street screw me for another board order?

Is the present a case of feast or famine?

Is having a sense of conscience important or vital in today’s society?

I, for one, would like to think our business is still based on affinity. Do onto others as you would have them do onto you. But maybe that saying has been reinterpreted to mean something entirely different than its origina intention. Not unlike a law that was originally created for the general good, but now is prey to reinterpretation by any number of attorneys seeking fame and fortune.

Sheesh, maybe I am better off alone…just my CNC, chopper gun, and I, me,uh…whatever.

43

I, for one, would like to think our business is still based on affinity. Do onto others as you would have them do onto you

Ah, the Golden Rule. Good businesses are based on that, some of them even successful...especially if they function in an organized, professional manner.

The best of the surfing life had a certain level of inclusiveness. Surfing was hard, you had to swim after a lost board, etc. You really had to want it. Dues were paid by the individuals in the water, not by credit/debit cards. Once the dollar sign enters the picture the priorities shift a bit. A critical review of surf media over the past 10 and maybe 20 years will show the marketing of exclusiveness, a process that is literally called "branding the consumer".

Good, positive communication can make a huge difference for smaller businesses. Effective business practices and plans, which don't have to be grandiose and complex, can go a long way to secure an economic base. Add quality product and you are about as solid as you can get in this day and age. I think...

44

Branding…Mondavi…Mondovino…Billionaire.

Branding…Biolas…Lost videos…getting there… (more people drink than surf).

Little guy…lean manufacturing…quality control…fair price…great delivery…treat customer like gold!

 

45

Little guy....lean manufacturing....quality control...fair price...great delivery...treat customer like gold!

Oooohhhh...looking at how you laid that out a thought that popped into my head was:

It's about net profit, not sales figures!

We might think that's some kind of basic, elemental knowledge...but if you spend any time outside surfing, especially dealing with companies on the stock markets, you find that anything very big is ruled by quarterly results and financial monkeyshines. That's a recipe for Sudden Death in small business. It really, really isn't "about" cash flow, as the recent real estate/financial collapse in the U.S. sadly proves.

46

All those people that didn’t really follow what their money was doing and just listened to Bernie Madoff say “you’re making money, things are great!”

Guess what?

inflated numbers by banks and corporations across the country, no…across the world: impropriety is not isolated to Amerika.

A healthy net CAN be derived from lean manufacturing, I’m livin proof of it…but you have to crunch numbers, have a work space that is maximized with the minimum, and most important of all A WORK ETHIC, and the acumen for getting it done. That probably cuts out the majority of egoists and wannabes. Sorry to sound unkind, but it’s a competitive business, but only for those who are willing to really be in the game.

It’s not the cost of materials. It can be about price and product differentiation, it most definitely is about discipline and having vision with the ability to bring it along from concept to completion.

How resourceful are you?

How independent can you work without other forces impacting your product, its price, and delivery?

Do you have the ability and mindset to maximize with the minimum, or are you a blow hard that talks a big game, wows unsuspecting customers, then doesn’t deliver???

People do succeed, and they are smart to quietly go about doing their business.

Can you blame them?

47

Nothing changes the fact that a saturated market is a saturated market which might be why some people got in behind SUP’s? Maybe the saturation has cleared (where’s Greg Loehr when you need him) but either way it looks as though there is another crash heading this countries way. Either way consumers still have way too much leverage in this industry at the moment. Here’s hoping some of the larger manufacturers bugger off.

48

Nothing changes the fact that a saturated market is a saturated market which might be why some people got in behind SUP's

That's true enough. And it will take some time for the saturation to dilute. I've noticed on craigslist in Ventura and Santa Barbara (California) that people are having trouble selling used boards. Some boards get reposted week after week, for what would have been good prices last year. And my most local surf shop yesterday had more boards than I've ever seen in there in all the years they have been open (maybe 10 years now); maybe 2-3 times as many. They had them hanging I guess by either fin boxes or leash cups...strange.

I think SUPs are a consumer response to saturation in the water...

49

Craigslist, eBay and the like, they all have one thing in common. They flood the market with cheap. These places are what killed the secondhand board market I feel. They just promote more and cheaper secondhand surfboards in abundance while getting cheaper all the time as sellers on these places try and out cheap each other. 

50

Nels & Dean…I second that on Cg’s List. Now it is flooded with guys that bought some crap new for cheap and are trying to make some money off flooding an already burdened market. I email these guys anonymously on a fairly regular basis…it is nearly always the same story: …knew a buddy who knows a guy and the boards are great…just wanna make some extra coin…rode one once of twice and it was awesome"…blah blah.

As far as the hanging system for boards that Nels remarked about…yeah, that’s the new deal. Yo can hang them upside down w/o fins making them even LESS ACCESSIBLE and LESS OF A SURFBOARD, but it allows the retailer to cram more in next t each other until they ressemble a stack of 2x4’s at Home Depot.

That’s really good merchandising.

What happened to the surfboard being personal equipment? Oh screw that, here take a catalog and hurry up and pick out a model.

Visa or Mastercard?

The board will show up in Craigs List after two or three surfs because it didn’t float them. They’ll take $200 less than what they paid for it, but pro surfers ride them and the label is cool.

51

look at any sport ,take golf for instance…the neophyte golfer looking at his first set of clubs will be the guy who goes to walmart and buys some china knock-off clubs, all set to shank one off the first tee…as the years pass and he gets better and demands more from his equipment he will gravitate to more expensive coustom clubs…the same holds true for surfing,there will always be a market for hand-made quality boards,the market share for these boards is small and will probablly always be unless we can create a stigma or some how make it uncool to ride anything but a handmade board.or educate the public on the differences between hand made and china…good luck with that…you can always spot the kooks at the beach by the board they got under there arm, but they dont know that. to the masses a boards a board,they need to be educated on what a quality board is all about, but in all fairness the kook is proabally better off with an epoxy china stick anyway,less dings when he drops it,and cheaper to boot,plus they dont think there good enough to notice the difference.REAL surfers are always going to want a REAL board…that just happens to be a small segment of the total board buying market.i dont thinks its a question of consumers being cheap…i mean i know mountian bikers who own 6,000 dollar bikes and 2,000 dollar cars.they are willing to spend the money …but its not ‘’ MISTO ‘’ bikes they are buying they are educated about the shocks, the brakes the frame etc. etc. theres alot of information avaliable to the bike buying consumer on what makes a 6,ooo dollar mt. bike cost that much…i dont think most surf board buyers know the diffrence between a 4 0z. glass job and a 6 oz…REALLY A BOARD IS JUST FOAM N GLASS, or at least thats how they appear to a neo-phyte…that has to be changed, but pick up a surf mag, any thing about what makes an expensive board expensive? any justification for someone looking to buy there first board, on buying a hand made quality board…no not really, i mean you see some ads for carbon fiber…oh yeah carbon fiber its lite its expensive, that justifys the price. justify the price of a hand-made quality board to a first time buyer, its all kind of MYSTO…BUT THATS WHAT MAKES SURFING SPECIAL… IT WAS A FRINGE SPORT and now we are trying to market it to the masses and get tweaked when they all dont understand what surfing and surfboards are all about

52

Hi Isrmaui

Could you please spell some of the ideas you have on what justifies the huge price difference between a local  - hand shaped board and its chinese made compeditor ?

I am not talking about custom made shapes, made for the individual, (as prices are based on the shapers ability and experience, I will never doubt those skills deserve good money.

But stock shapes that fill the USA surfboard stores, I have been there and every shop had LOST, Merrick boads selling for a fortune
(Some lost boards have come from china, and merrick has ghost shapers all over the world, both using machines)

Wouldn’t you / everyone just be better off if the stores sold the chinese boards at a similar price to home made ones, thus making more profit and not ruining the standard price people are willing to pay ?

 

53
I have only recently accepted that some fairly proficient surfers actually buy their boards off the rack at what is primarily a clothing store.  I suppose the loss to the manufacturing base is of little concern to those retailers.
 
Sickdog
54

Maui…lots of good points you make. It definitely is difficult for the novice to distinguish differences between surfboards in the market place.

I’ve heard the scenario about the cheap board for the beginner and they eventually work their way up to the Porsches and Ferraris as they become better surfers and more knowledgeable. There is some truth to that, and then I have known guys that surf really well that just know how to find cheap stuff that works for them. To each their own. Some are influenced by environmental concerns.

The new “4th Annual Green Issue of Surfing” makes an attempt at promoting environmental awareness, but gets it wrong at least once when. It states:

“Neither PU nor EPS foam is recyclable once it’s in the composite structure of a surfboard”.

NOT.

I don’t really get “Surfing Mag” because they state this in one spot in their magazine then run a full page 70 “At Random” contradicting the previous statement with a feature about Joe Santley of Green Foam Blanks.

So which is it? Read on…

Steve Cox  from “Green Foam Blanks” was at the recent Sacred Craft show in Ventura and was displaying both finished boards and blanks that were from recycled PU foam. This included a program where glassed PU boards could be turned in and they would strip and recycle the foam. I was told for every 50 lbs. of PU foam (no mixing with EPS) about 5 blanks could be made from the foam. Lost has used his program for both foam dust and turned in team boards. If you have a vac system hooked to your planer, accumulating the foam waste isn’t much of a chore.

Suffice to say, if someone like Steve & Joey had the dedication to strip and recycle EPS cores, I have no doubt that could be done as well. The EPS rail cuttings can (and are) already recycled for uses in EPS products though most of us prefer virign EPS foam for new board production. Still, that doesn’t negate the ability for recycling.

Green Foam is to be commended for their responsible approach toward the waste we create in the industry and can be reached at greenfoamblanks.com or steve@resurf.org or even by calling 888 779.2220. They are in San Clemente and at the show said they do pickups…

or http://greenfoamblanks.blogspot.com/

 

Whether entirely correct or not, Surfing Magazine is making the effort to promote awareness to its readers.

Ultimately, the consumer in a free market system decides what they want to spend their disposable income on, whether it be a surfboard in a variety of construction methods, an IPOD, or any other product on the market.

 

55

…I have a friend who is a m biker (he compete) and have one of those expensive bikes and cheapo car.

I have an ultra radical approach; for ex if a cloth store with couple of boards needs to close his door, well, that is ok for me

and for real surfing (lot of debate here…) in my opinion.

as I wrote in an old thread, I wish that Surfing becomes like wsurfing now, that only the guys who really love the activity, practices and “all know each other”; but seems impossible to surfing…

 

I see hardcore surfers and have plenty of customers with 20 - 30 years of experience surfing, ordering boards (from me and from others-buying off the racks and from other surfers too-) that STILL do not know how or what to see in a board and do not know and are clueless about details or even finishes of their boards (remember Swaylocks is a small % staff)

I see that in some pro surfers too.

 

 

56

this is a thought provoking thread,ARE CONSUMERS GETTING GREEDY?....WELL LETS SEE...its the big name short board companys who took their factorys from california to asia, to maxamize profits, and pay the sponsored surfers on the WCT..look at a surfing mag, very little advertising for ACTUAL SURFBOARDS, the advertising that is there is usually from a company building boards in asia,you might see a patagonia ad in surfers journal, but by in large its asian board manufacuters, they spend the bucks on the advertising and pay the surfers on the WCT, IF ANY BODY IS GETTING GREEDY IT WOULD APPEAR that its companys like RUSTY, BUT I DONT KNOW ARE THEY GREEDY OR JUST TRYING TO ADAPT TO A CHANGING MARKET.. i always thought the atheletes themselves had something to do with this, they demand , and recive huge contracts, the reason those huge cotracts can be paid is because  of the manufacturing and profit saving of asia, its the same in tennis shoes for NBA players , i  mean tiger woods reaps the benifits of a enormous nike cotract because of the profits nike makes by by manufacturing in asia...you dont here tiger woods feeling sorry for small tennis shoe companys that get snuffed by nike, you dont here pro surfers screaming BUY CALIFORNIA MADE boards..may be the atheletes are the ones who are greedy??  any way i surf hand made usa boards  , i do my  part   aloha

57

i have some interesting experiences regarding the retail experience of shoping for boards…once i went to a major store on maui and wanted a high performance longboard i was shown some tugboat that was made in china, i told the salesman i was looking for something more than a china board, he got kind of an attitutiude with me, defending the board, its construction and where it was made…i walked out…a lot of sales people defend and justify the asian market, they site numerous big name companys who build quality boards overseas, and really dont understand the alligance to hand shaped boards…on the flip side i was checking out short boards the prices of a WADE, was over 700.00dollars…700.00 dollars for a plain white WADE…i asked the salesman why so much? he answered …they surf great. …i hope so , my personal experience is that the majority of consumers could care less about perserving the integreity of the craftmanship associated with surfboard construction,surfers in the know, well they know…so i guess you either got it or you dont, it all boils down to where you are with surfing, but i see nothing from the surf media supporting this cause, its an underground movement thats usually talked about in shaping bays or in the parking lot .when money is envolved the chance to make more of it with less work will prevail with some , while others will choose to be true to their own personal values…

58

…man, I agree with your words

in the past months at least 3 guys told me more or less like I have “an icecream in the brow” (be dumb) for put the time that I put on the custom orders…2 are surfers…

59

I am Underground and a handshaper and designer, and will always be one.

I also build quality boards from start to finish, charge a fair price, and treat my customers like gold.

They are happy, that makes me happy, and it just keeps on going round and round.

Two words: Lean Manufacturing

http://www.goletasurfing.com/fowler.html

 

60

Suffice to say, if someone like Steve & Joey had the dedication to strip and recycle EPS cores, I have no doubt that could be done as well. The EPS rail cuttings can (and are) already recycled for uses in EPS products though most of us prefer virign EPS foam for new board production. Still, that doesn't negate the ability for recycling.

Green Foam is to be commended for their responsible approach toward the waste we create in the industry and can be reached at greenfoamblanks.com or steve@resurf.org or even by calling 888 779.2220. They are in San Clemente and at the show said they do pickups......

or http://greenfoamblanks.blogspot.com/

 

Are these guy's still making foam? Joey dropped off a longboard blank to my shop and said it was for a customer?

It's has sat there for 4 months? No word from Joey and no call backs from my calls? I have my dust collector bags full of shavings from PU/EPS and some times Balsa or Redwood. Plus the stringer shavings. If you could recycle the dust from all the cutting houses? Pour all the shavings into a large converted flour silo and pnematically convey the material into mixers then into mold injectors. With the right chemisty you could balance it out to be light / crush resistant and colorfull (Why not color the foam so you don't worry about yellowing).  All the NEMO GREEN BOY's would be in Heaven. Instead of worrying about the Greedy Comsumer you would have Green Consumers instead.

Think outside the Box!

 

SD