Asymmetrical surfboards, what's the big deal?

General Discussion
41

Glad you summed it all up for us OB

You left out a couple of categories though

  1. The know it all: he thinks he has all the answers and is the only one qualified to comment on a forum about board design.  On one hand hating successful companies like channel island on the other telling us the boards that all the groms are ripping on are “what’s happening now” even though they are carbon copies of the boards that JS and CI have been making for 10 years.

  2. The disgruntled local shaper: who cranks out copies of JS and CI boards and despite his own claims to the contrary did not invent the quad fin back in '83. Even though he bitches about it to anyone who will listen has never actually added a single idea to the industry from which he makes his living.

  3. The old guy that has been surfing for 35 years can still jam a backhand snap that will blind a grom with spray 20 feet away. That loves to experiment riding and making interesting boards that challenge how he thinks about surfing every day.  And who doesn’t give a solitary damn what you think.

42

“Here is the simple test: go somewhere that the groms are killing it and look at the boards they ride - that is the answer to ‘whats going on’ DONE.”

“The best wave I had, I never even turned on”

~ Wayne Lynch

===================

I find the statement followed by a quote from Waynce Lynch hilarious

when was the last time Wayne Lynch did an air?

 

been watching this stuff before the whole modern pro surfing thing started in the 70’s

and where do 90% of these “pros” end up in their 40s,50s,60s?

has been druggies? alchoholics? born again christians 10% church followers?

 

seems like the ones who were there just to surf a wave or two and then go back to the real world perservered

those whose head is stuck in the game fizzled out

being good at something is different than trying to become famous by besting others for fame and money

buttons rode some of the worst equipment in the world (the aipa sting) and still out performed the majority of the surfere for decades to follow

I think its because he was just having fun and learned to make due with what ever he had to ride instead of becoming world champ

people hates SUPs

people hate Wavejets

people hate tow ins

people hate longboards

people hate “goatboats”

people hate boogie boarders

but they all have there place

BTW

Lynch rode a pretty controversial shape back in his day if I remember back then, looked ugly as sh*t but he rode the crap out of it.

 

 

 

43

I did not start surfing in the 60s because of pros or lifestyle marketing.  I wanted to ride** waves**.

I did not/do not give a rodent’s buttocks what the pros or groms are riding or doing.

Surfing 70 miles from a city of 1,000,000, breaks were starting to get crowded by the late 60s without the help of the Surfing Industrial Complex.

We had Hang Ten boardshorts and their raglan shirts in the 60s.  Lifestyle marketing had begun, California Cool.  Nobody special wore them until the mid 60s when Hang Ten “sponsored a surfing team.”  Hang Ten went international and SIC was born …

44

Dad used to always say:

“Don’t knock it 'til you’ve tried it.”

Ryan Burch is as good a surfer as you will find and can ride anything.

He’s also a terrific shaper.

And he has embraced the asyms completely.

http://bobbersandsinkers.tumblr.com/

 

45

such generalization and blanket statements about “pros” all the time. why? it’s like saying every single asym boards will never work. 90% of “old” pros are probably still shredding waves in their 40-50-60’s.

swaylocks with the guys and their anti-marketing marketing campaigns. pros are the devil but the big companies are even worse.

46

Buttons was amazing in his day as you say Oneula. He was a hero of mine as a grom.  Sadly as you pointed out the instant success ruined him leading to heroin addiction and ultimately prison time.  He’s back out and charging the big big stuff now though.  Long may he ride.  

As for Wayne lynch was pretty famous for the Tracker shape that was a key to the jump from long boards to short boards.  If George Greenough, Bob Mctavish Nat Young and Wayne Lynch had looked at what the groms were riding and stuck with it we’d all still be riding 9’ logs.

Similarly if MR did he would never had ridden his twinnies to become 3 times world champ.  If Simon Anderson had just accepted that a big dude has to ride either a Twinnie and wiggle or a Single fin and fall behind there would be no 3 fin boards!

My friend was at a shaping exhibition in Sydney recently where Bob Mctavish himself shaped a 7’ assym fun board and stated for the audience that these things are going to be huge over the next few years. With almost 60 years of knowledge under his belt if anyone knows it’s Bob.

Surfing has had a proud tradition of of innovation that I believe stagnated for a while in the 1990’s and early 2000’s possibly due to the influence of pro surfing and the commercialisation of surfboard manufacture in general but I also think that has changed dramatically iin the last 7 years.

A lot of people have realised a wafer thin 19" wide thruster is not the best board for them.  I’m one of those people. For me surfing is about FUN and that fun comes from making the most I can out of every wave I can get my hands on.   I ride boards that go good for me and I let them do the talking for me in the water.  I dont care what anyone thinks about them out of the water.  

I am thrilled that Interest in alternative boards has also been popularised by the likes of Kelly Slater, Rob Marchado and Dave Rastavich who are ripping on all kinds of crazy boards and I think that the likes of Firewire and Channel Island’s commitment to exploring these weird and wonderful shapes is exactly what the big companies should be doing.  

I love that  young inventive guys like Ryan Burch and Danial 'Tomo" Thompson  and hopefully a million other mad scientists are taking up the challenge and trying new and different ideas that will lead us to the next generation of surfing innovation.

Surfing is about being a thing in motion riding a thing in motion on a thing in motion.  

The thinking that surrounds this awesome activity should also be a thing in motion.  

I cant wait to see what comes next.

47

Here’s a good video of Ryan Burch.

48

Some stuff over on surf research australia. 

Firstly, you only use one rail at a time, so why not? Secondly, forehand you apply pressure through 

knees, ankles and toes -through a series of muscles and sinews. Backhand the pressure goes much more directly -bones more in .line, pushing into heels that can carry massive pressure. Hence the forehand turn is the more controlled, less powerful and the backhand vise versa. So shape each rail to utilise these qualities.

Thirdly, surfing forehand you generally require a longer reaching forehand turn and tighter quicker cut back to put it back in the power. You don’t need the same arcing potential from each rail if you consistently surf a particular spot, breaking one way. It means that, if it’s practical, you can fine tune your equipment for a particular break, giving your forehand a more suitable turn and tube hugging characteristics, and your other rail a better cut back. Make sense?

So for many years now there’s been a small flicker of asymmetric thinking. One small shop, Nelson - Ekstrom in La Jolla California made them for years. Midget made a hook-back that lengthened one rail back in '63 and sold dozens. Bob Razby shaped plenty in Byron in the early seventies, and is now an excellent New Zealand shaper, no doubt still thinking asymmet- ric. I made my first in Hawaii in 1970. Bob Newlands, the Surf-Aids man has been riding Razby’s, his own, and mine now for seven years. And around Lennox, Byron there’s a small but growing school of ace-freaks.

In what way are our boards asymmetric? Well the general theme that pops up is a narrower longer 

forehand line - ‘gunnier’ if you like - that delivers excellent forehand draw and helps to find the tube -  a pocket rocket. This forehand tail outline is just the one you personally prefer, be it pin, wing pin, swallow, square, diamond or round.

The general theme of the backhand is wider and pivotier; one that cuts back better. Over the years it was obvious that we knew little about what makes a cutback tick, but recently by adding and subtracting foam and glass from existing shapes that we were currently surfing, we learnt a lot. . 

If you notice the clear board with the complicated tail you get a before and after view. “Before” shows the backhand as a short pin, sting coupled with a longer wing pin forehand. Although this combination found the tube well, its cutback was quick but gutless. Lost all speed and slushed out in a cutback.

The “After” shot shows the added foam and" glass to give it a swallow backhand with increased area. Now she slashes cutbacks and maintains speed beautifully.

We continued this idea, area under the heels for cut- backs and the reaction has been nothing but positive. 

49

Buttons did rip and still charges

Posted: Thu, 2013-12-12 11:14(new)

(Reply to #42)#44Back to Top

 

" Buttons was amazing in his day as you say Oneula. He was a hero of mine as a grom. Sadly as you pointed out the instant success ruined him leading to heroin addiction and ultimately prison time. He’s back out and charging the big big stuff now though. Long may he ride."

 

 … sad to say , steve,

 

  buttons recently lost his battle with cancer , and is unfortunately no longer with us . R.I.P. , ‘Buttons’

 

  no one here has mentioned

 

  jeff ho

 

I noticed ?

 

  in the dogtown z boys movie there are shots of him with some of HIS assymetrical   Zephyr boards in the 1970s …

 

  zac , thanks for posting  that !

 

  I wish more people checked the surfresearch site , it has some great boards and information !

 

 

    cheers !

 

     ben

 

 

R.I.P., Allan Byrne …

https://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1429&bih=678&q=al+byrne+assymetrical+surfboards&oq=al+byrne+assymetrical+surfboards&gs_l=img.3…2496.26410.0.30946.36.16.0.20.0.0.842.5082.0j3j1j10j6-1.15.0…0…1ac.1.32.img…26.10.2948.uwAofzrvMgU

 

50

I was talking with Carl Ekstrom a couple weeks ago and he told me Ryan Burch recently shaped 40 boards which he then shipped to surfy places around the world and he’s now traveling to all those spots surfing his way around the globe.

Sweet.

51

cruise through ryan burch’s instagram account, - http://instagram.com/bobbersandsinkers# -  you can see all of his weird boards. it’s pretty awesome!

52

Here’s an interesting article about a CI board with an offset stringer. I would think that the point here is to place the stringer on the heel side of the board to match where the stronger pushing forces are. The toe side would have more flex and you can react to it better on your frontside.

Seems like there is quite a bit of thinking going on to move this forward.

http://www.surfertoday.com/surfing/4612-the-theory-behind-asymmetrical-surfboards

53

Per my post number 10, this design concept which originated in Australia,  has been kicking around for OVER fifty years.    There must be a reason that the concept is not, or has not, gone mainstream in all that time.    It’s not for lack of hype or promotion.     Does it work?   Sure.     Is it superior to ‘‘normal’’ symmetrical design surfboards?     Most likely not.    If it were, that is WHAT EVERYONE WOULD BE MAKING !    Just another way to ‘‘skin the cat’’ as I’m fond of saying.     If you’re weak backside, this design (crutch) MAY be helpful to you.    Or If you are just seeking a different surfing experience, then  you may find the design interesting in that way.    It’s not for everyone.     It’s not the Holy Grail.

54

Bill, that was the anti epoxy argument. But I take your point about the crutch. And I just like the feel. 

55

Bill, I disagree with your opinion. I think asymetrical boards are going to be the way things go during the next decade, and may be the way most boards are by 2020. Surfing is unique in that we apply different leveraging forces on opposite sides of the board. Your balance is much different leaning on the toes than leaning on heals. You can lean out further on your toes than you can on your heals. I think this is why modern high performance surfing is done lot in a low crouch because it lowers your center of gravity. I think the asymms will be the new high performance standard, and work best in the shorter boards where you tend to make very extreme turns. The big wave boards may not get as much benefit because you are making longer arc turns. I also think that a board you would use primarily for going frontside may not be the same board you’d want for days when you primarily go backside.

I think the problem is the greater numbers of surfers who don’t want to try new and unusual concepts that the Big Names are not using. I also think symmetry has a stronger asthetic and surfers generally will want a visually pleasing board. I think the real drivers of the asymm boards are the acceptance of multi finned boards. We (the general population) know that twins work and how to use them, we know about thrusters and how to use them, we’ve recently jumped on the 4 and 5 finned board bandwagon. It makes sense that the next variation is the asymm outline and bottom shape. The concept is solid, but the execution is not simple. The shaping machine lets bleeding edge designers express their ideas much quicker and with great precision. I think this will benefit these boards that have so much going on in the plan shape and rocker.

56

Sharkcountry,

I did not say that the design concept was not sound.   But there are simpler ways to  generate the desired performance envelope.    PICO very wisely pointed out that fin position in relation to the rail, would produce similar performance results.    Which is correct.     What I did say, was that it is not  the Holy Grail of surfing.    I stand by that.   

57

I stand corrected on that part. Actually I have no idea what the Holy Grail means.

58

I think its cool that people are willing to think a concept through, then try it out. Do something different. If they stumble across something that works for even one person, makes his (or her) surfing (or surfboard making) experience a bit more enjoyable, then its good. To me, its not a crutch or a gimmick if it does that. This is a surfboard design forum, it makes it interesting to see and learn about different approaches, the thinking behind them.

59

I’ve been riding asymmetricals nearly exclusively for 30 years or so.

I mostly agree with Greg, except that I would say that you can bring more leverage to bear on your heel side but much more finesse on your toe side.

I once heard that Les Potts called his boards “electromagnetic wave condensers” To me, that meant that the ideal surfboard allows you to store and release a wave’s energy. You could (if you felt like it!) store the wave’s energy by dropping into the flats keeping your CG low and when you square off a bottom turn, feel the g’s in your knees and release the energy up the face or down the line. I gave thrusters a pretty good tryout when they first arrived on the scene, and as they evolved I would try my friend’s thrusters but I always felt that they lived in the mid range of wave energy and forsook the extremes. That’s just my opinion, but I don’t surf for anybody else.

I liked everything about single fins, except the way I couldn’t seem to control fin drift backside. Frontside, the mechanics of my feet allow me to finesse the rail and fin with a combination of body lean and toe leverage. However, I couldn’t bring enough toe-leverage to bear on the frontside fin and rail when the rail was too straight and the tail too wide. 

So, I slammed together two planshapes: frontside with my favorite single fin template with the wide point a little forward of center and a straighter, wider, backside rail with the wide point a little back and a small fin out towards the rail. (This was new to me, but that’s 'cause I was ignorant of what others were doing or had done. I can’t believe it took me so long.)

This had some real advantages. I can have a wider tail overall which means more planing area and more speed frontside and backside than with a symmetrical single-fin. Backside, with all the ass swing-weight and heel drive I can ride high in the pocket or square-off a bottom turn. 

I just don’t know if you could achieve all this moving fins around.

I can think of a whole lot of reasons why it’s taken so long for asymmetricals to catch on, but I don’t think lack of performance is one of them.

 

JW

 

60

To me, calling this notion a “crutch” is a little myopic because it has nothing to do with your ability it has to do with the performance of the board. You could make the same comment about a short board or any kind of board really because it does one thing better than another.  Long boards are a crutch cos they paddle easier, short boards are a crutch cos they ride the pocket easier, fish are a crutch cos they go faster without having to pump for speed, single fins are a crutch cos they carve better SUPS are a menace…just because they are.

Personally I think that the reason that the standard symetrical 3 fin short board is so ubiquitous is that it is essentially a compromise that works for quite well for riding both frontside and backside and anyone either goofy or natural footed can jump on one so that makes them easy to spit out of the shaping bay or indeed as is often the case nowadays out of a shaping machine.

Also dont forget that the 3 fin board was invented by Simon Anderson because he found twin fins to skatey and single fins too limiting.  He took the best aspects of 2 different types of boards and fused them into one…At first a lot of people looked at Simon like he had 2 heads walking down the beach with that stupid looking thing.  Until he won Bells on one then suddenly everyone wanted one.

3 fins in the traditional “thruster” configuration give some of the looseness of a twin fin and the middle fin makes for a smooth rail to rail transition. They deliver more stability and more predictability than twin fins or quads but there is a tradeoff and that is speed. With 3 fins you are gonna be continually pumping your legs for speed.  

I mentioned in an earlier post I have a twin fish that I love riding frontside.  The reason I love it is because it gives me speed effortlessly and is way faster than any 3 fin board I have ever ridden.  The tradeoff is that it is shit backhand and is difficult to cut back on because it really tends to want to ride flat.  I dont think I am the only person that has experienced this love hate relationship with twin fin fish.  Check Nat Young trying to pull a full roundhouse on one. He has to grab the outside rail and yank it around because that is the only way you can get them to do it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9djYUY_xG0

So what if you want a board that has the down the line front side drive that you love in a fish but will also allow you to do full roundhouse cutties and proper backside  bottom turns?  If you read any interviews with Ryan Burch you will find this is exactly what he is trying to achieve.  He is not trying to find the holy grail of contest boards but create a board that works for him, that have the effortless drive of a twinny but will still whip around on backside rail. 

If you read any of Eckstrom’s notes on assymetry it is about finding 2 boards you love and fusing them into one.  "To Ekstrom the process of creating the perfect asymmetrical surfboard can be quite easy. “You can go to an Al Merrik catalog and pick out what you think would be good backside board. And then you might find a fish that could be a good front side board and combine the two. It’s as simple as that.”

http://www.surfscience.com/topics/surfboard-anatomy/tail/asymmetrical-surfboard-designs

Calling it a crutch infers that you are propping up something that is defective or weak but I prefer to think of it as more like transplanting Usain Bolt’s Legs onto Michael Phelps and you are getting a lot closer to the idea of what assymetrical boards are an attempt to achieve.