(1) The design has EVERYTHING to do with the ability of the rider. Think about it.
(2) How on earth did I build a 3 fin surfboard in 1964, if Simon Anderson didn’t invent it until 1980? Time machine, perhaps? Don’t look now, but your profound ignorance of surfboard design and surfing history, is showing. Sadly, you don’t even know, how little you know.
(3) Since I surfed with Carl for years at Windansea, and been friends with him for over fifty years, I don’t READ his comments about asymmetry, I have had PERSONAL CONVERSATIONS with him on the subject. Be sure to read post #10, in this thread. The words there mean something.
(4) How is it not a ‘‘crutch’’ if you modify your equipment to overcome your reduced ability? Didn’t you mention weak? As in weak backside? Crutch, it is.
Bill, an asymm design will also benefit from asymmetrical rockers.
i don’t really know where this is going for me but I am having a lot of fun with it and it is helping me better understand surfboard design in general. You will understand that I’m sure.
Yes, about the asymm rocker. I recall Carl telling me about that, when he started shaping a different rocker, on the short side, to make the backside turn easier. That was some time in the mid/late 60’s. As has been pointed out before, a twisted board will produce the same favorable effect. At least if it is twisted in the correct direction, for the rider’s stance. Skinning the same cat, a different way.
The characteristics of a well defined asym could really elevate when purpose built for specific waves. Large Teahupoo, macking Cloudbreak, J-bay. Boards built for specific waves with fine tuned rocker(s), foils(s), fin clusters, etc correctly ‘offset’ to maximize grip, speed and release, essentially directional boards.
I spent some time at Margies in West Oz during the mid 90’s, and a guy named Camel ruled the deep tube, riding much further back then other talented locals who were riding conventional thrusters. Camel alternated between a single fin with the fin repositioned on the wave face side of the stringer, and thrusters with the grouping shifted over as well. A couple of years later Surfers Journal did an article on Camel that outlined his excellent success riding such boards during his prolonged stays at G-Land.
Surfboard design will continue to lurch and advance as it always has, perhaps not as game changing revolutionary as the introduction of the thruster, more likely incremently.
If a signficant paradigm shift is unrolled, it will likely come from a thinker not paying any attention to what the pros are riding in their Clone Wars, where board designs are so alike a trickster could swap stickers on the boards in their contest racks and the riders probably wouldnt know immediately, manuevers and styles so hyper homogenized that if the contestants all wore masks while competing, only a few would be recognizable by style or build alone.
the only question is will design break throughs and advancements be even noticed by the herd continually going over the cliff following the newest flavor of the month pro model, which is essentially the same as last months flavor of the month with a different name - the Cud Chewer having been replaced by the Dinner Bell…
Symmetry is more about human preference for visual asthetics (symmetric faces are more visually appealing).
The toe and heel of a human shoe/foot are not shaped the same. The longitutidinal distribution of area and shape are not symmetrical with respect to the ankle joint – the ankle joint is not centered relative to the heal and toes of our foot. Our neuro-muscular and skeletal anatomy as well as balance system is designed for forward/frontside/toe-side motion, orientation, leans and compensation. The human body is directionally oriented (vision, smell, joint articulation …) and not well adapted for backwards/backside/heel-side motion, orientation, leans and compensation.
Asymmetric surfboard shape/design seems like a valid ergonomic approach.
The design is the design. It exists independant of the rider. A ferrari is a ferrari even if my granny is driving it at 12 miles an hour.
I’m not trying to write the history of surfing here. Obviously when talking about Simon Anderson I’m talking about the modern 3 fin short board that stemmed from his thruster designs in the 1980s and how those boards come from a fusion of the existing twin fin and single fin designs of his day. Are you really trying to take credit for that because you stuck three skegs on a log in 1964? Get a hold of yourself man.
You’ve had PERSONAL CONVERSATIONS with Eckstrom? I don’t care if you spoke to Mother Theresa, Nelson Mandela, Ghandi or Jesus himself. I don’t need to speak to someone personally to take inspiration from their ideas. What happens in my mind after that initial inspiration is more to do with me than it is to do with them anyway.
To me the point of assymetrical design isn’t to remedy a deficiency in the rider. What I have been trying to articulate is that some boards perform better than others under different circumstances. I am specifically interested in exploring the possibilities of taking the best parts of 2 different designs and combining them into a third thing that that adds up to more than the sum of the 2 halves. “Crutch?” it aint.
I’m not interested in changing your stunted way of thinkin any more than I am interested in having you dictate to me what I should think. Just because you couldn’t make something work doesn’t mean it can’t work. That is evidenced by the fact that, since the 1980’s, the majority of boards produced have been based on Simon Anderson’s thruster designs and not your failed 1964 attempt at a 3 finned surfboard whatever that might have been.
There is no reason why a surfboard should have a symmetrical plan shape, fin placement or rocker, unless you only plan to go straight, or only make a few turns.
I think Ekstrom and the guys at Plus One have figured it out, and it will only get better as more people ride them and give these guys good feedback.
George Gall, with the benefit of an engineer’s approach and a lot of rider feedback is probably further along than anyone. Your brother has one of his Reverse Asymms. Case in point.
Bill, at lunch a few years ago, you described George as one of only a handful of designers who “fully understand” and “the complete package”. With people like Carl and George collaborating the art/science will advance.
All of the above is true. George is on the short list of people, who build and design surfboards, that have impressed me. Carl too. That does not alter my belief that the design addresses a riders shortcomings. And the design philosophy is sound. But,as I stated, ‘’…it’s not for everyone.‘’ Since I am capable of building ANY kind of surfcraft, nothing prevents me from building an asymmetric board. I never felt the need. I did a lot of switch stance, going left, as I’m a regular foot. That was my backside ‘‘compensation.’’ I am curious about one part of your above post, in particular the reference made to ‘‘Your brother…’’ Did you mean me? I don’t have a brother. So, if you could clarify that comment for me, I’d appreciate it.
I come back from vacation and there’s three threads on asym boards.
Lets do this!
When working for Linden during the 90’s,
he told me about Carl Ekstrom.
Soon after, he shaped the first Asym board I’d seen.
Admitingly, I was a little confused. Yet found it very intriguing.
Years later, I began experimenting with various designs.
And surfing them.
I for one love them.
Based on the theory that the human body and the way it is designed, when you lean forward, all your weight is transfered to your toes. That’s why your frontside bottom turn is easier. The opposite is true about your heel-side. That’s why you have to squat more and apply more pressure.
Shorter heelside rail combined with a little extra tail flip really works for me.
All the pressure needed to engage that rail is lesssened.
I have built a couple of demo boards for my customers to try.
Lots of good feedback.
I showed Carl my personal Asym board at the Boardroom show a couple years ago.
Sorry Bill. On my iPhone so not as clear as I should be. I meant Harry’s brother in that particular remark.
I think think we understand we understand one another now regarding the place asymms should occupy. I don’t disagree too much with what you’ve said. I’m building a couple of assumes now and will post some pictures in a week or so.
Barry - I have never tried an asymetrical board, but every time I read about them, I think I must be built upside down and backwards. I’m goofyfoot, live in So. Cal., and surf backside 99% of the time, always have. Malibu, Topanga, County Line, Dume, Rincon, Faria, C-St., Stables, Trestles, backside, backside, backside. I am very comfortable surfing backside. Frontside, however, always feels a little awkward to me. Backside, my usual m.o. is to drop in and hit a turn halfway down the face. Unless its a peaky situation, but the point breaks I frequent are usually down-the-line. Frontside, however, I always seem to miss my cue on that quick turn, and I end up dropping all the way down, then hitting a hard bottom turn. Sometimes it works, and sometimes the wave has already passed me by. In other words, I always felt if I rode an asymetrical, I would want it looser frontside, for that quick turn halfway down the face, when I want it. Maybe someday I’ll surf a left point break for a week solid, and work some of the bugs out of my frontside act. I did surf Haggertys once for several hours, and in that space of time I was already noticing an improvement - I had more lefts in those few hours than 6 months of normal surfing LOL!
Rode the Griffin 5 fin this afternoon. Forgot how wonderful that board is. Another board people will be argue about till the cows come home. Those who ride them saying how good they are, and those who don’t ride them but say they are rediculous.
A board that gives you more control and let’s you surf better can’t be called a crutch, it’s an asset. I think using new tools to do things better is what smart people do.
How many laughed at Simon when he first made his thruster?
If you have special challenges, there is no shame in using a crutch. Heck, I’m 58 years old, running two businesses in a bad economy, I’m not as strong as I used to be, a lot broker than I used to be, don’t get out in the water as much as I used to, and often when I do I’m one old man in a thick crowd of younger surfers - I’m all for anything that will keep me out there having fun, getting waves, and staying stoked. Maybe thats at least partially why I tend to be more open-minded and receptive to different surfboard shapes and designs.
That’s my take on it, too. I can bring way more power to bear with my heel than with my toes and that’s why the frontside half of my asymmetricals are narrower and curvier and the backside wider and straighter.
Fingers and toes are very dextrous but not that powerful. That’s why a karate kick leads with the heel. But if I’m gonna’ climb a rock, I’m not doing it backside!
