Board production costs

General Discussion
1

Hi all,

Never posted here before but I have been reading a lot on here, very good forum. 

I've been shaping boards as a hobby and really enjoy it.  I want to continue to develop my design skills but of course for the home shaper costs can be pretty high.  I've made a handful of boards for myself and a few more for my friends.  So far they have all turned out pretty decent and I want to continue to learn and really start to refine my designs and try new things.  So far I've been sticking to traditional designs that are pretty much tried and true.

I don't really plan to do this for a living or anything (too much competition and there is no money in it!) but it would be cool to be able to finance my hobby so I'm not spending over $300 for each design I want to try, especially if they end up being an unusual design and it just doesn't work.  Then it's $300 bucks down the drain because I can't unload it.  Currently I have been making them, trying them out and selling them to friends at my cost but it's hard to sell a board to a friend knowing they can spend $50 to $100 more to buy a board from a more experienced shaper.   

I'd like to find out what production costs are to make a board, because I don't see how anyone makes a profit in this biz!  I know I'm paying retail at this point, I was thinking of getting a reseller's license to sell a handful of boards a year to finance the hobby, but not sure if it's worth the hassle.  Can anyone help me out and tell me how much I could save if I went that route?  What can I expect to save on blanks, glass, resin, fins, and fin boxes if I had a reseller's license?  Also what kind of volume would I need to start getting some price breaks?  I've asked around and as soon as I mention I'm not a production volume shaper and don't have a reseller's license no one will give me a straight answer. 

I'm in the middle of shaping a 6'8" shortboard for a friend.  She was quoted $385 from a local shaper to make a similar board.  Here is what my material costs are for a 6'8" SB:

6'9"Blank - $85

machine cut - $35

finish shaping - $0, doing it myself

pro glassing - $200

TOTAL COST: $320 which would leave about $60 in profit for that shaper if he had my costs.  But what are the real costs?  I realize I can hand shape to save $35.  Doesn't seem like anyone would do it for a $60 profit. 

 

Most of the boards I've made I've glassed myself, and my costs would be as follows:

6'9"Blank - $85

machine cut - $35

finish shape - $0 do it myself

fiberglass - $32

resin - $36

fin boxes - $24

fins  - at least $30

brushes/sandpaper/cups etc $20. 

total cost: $262 if I place fins and glass myself, but it's a ton more work obviously.

 

 

 

2

why machine?

Use milk jugs(gallon) for buckets. Resuse brshes, squeegees, etc. Clean with acetone. Do your own glassing. buy in bulk!

sandpaper shouldn't cost too much either

3

Thanks for the post.  I do re-use as much as possible, except for brushes.  I know I can save some $ buying resin and fiberglass in bulk just haven't gotten to that point yet.  I machine because currently I'm shaping in my shed, and there is foam EVERYWHERE not to mention the neighbors would go crazy(er) if I started mowing foam all day during the weekend.  Bad enough I'm glassing and sanding there.  At least if I have it machine cut, most of the work is done and it's easy to change just one or two design elements for comparison, and I can be pretty sure the next iteration is pretty close to the first.  My interest is mainly in board design not so much fabrication. 

I guess I just want to know what people who do this for money pay for blanks, fins, and machine cuts if they are selling boards for $350 - $400 and they have a space, tools, and employees to pay for...

 

 

4

Face the facts bro and take it like a stand up dude or find another hobby ;petroleum based products are just plain expensive and board building is high on the use once, pass it on and build another one syndrome; hereʻs some food for thought; recycle old boards by stripping them down  and reusing the foam, the fin boxes and plugs and even the fins if possible; not the most desireable path but totally doable; and shape and glass all your boards; if they come out pro quality people will come to you for orders, then they can front the money for materials…ha, problem solved!! but check this theory out… as soon as you start charging money for something you do for the love of doing it, it becomes another job and there goes the love and creativity and here comes the pressure to perform…stay in the shadows…itʻs cooler and less stressful!!!

5

The answer is that they’re not making much money in relation to the time/effort they’re spending at it.   They’re renting their spaces, paying sales tax, complying with safety regulations, etc.    And that’s if they don’t have any employees.  

Buying materials for 3-4 boards at a time makes a big difference.   The last all-glass EPS/epoxy I did cost me about $170, not counting fins.   I don’t do machine cuts so that’s some savings, too.  

6

I don’t use machine shapes and I glass them myself and my home creations are right around $150 each.

7

    Don’t reuse brushes!? C’mon man. Thats money right there. Our shop looks like a hoarders den at times from all the useful wood and tools we garbage pick. Gotta find  a way, and being thrifty is really important until it degrades from the finished product.

    Do your friends ding repair and you will make enough to finance a board in no time. Always charge something!

8

do you think you should get more than $60 for doing nothing other than sanding some ridge lines off a computer shape? how long does that take? 30 mins max? thats $120 an hour!

you might be able to save $20 on the blank if you bought a hundred of them.

you could a little cash on the fins & glass. you should be able to get clear 4/6oz glass for $2.00-$2.25 per yard. resin is around $40 a gallon (for poly). closer to $100 for epoxy but you can do more boards with a gallon of epoxy. you should be able to get a quad fin set with boxes for $40.

some of the wholesale surf suppliers dont care if you have a resale license. they only care how much you by.

pro glass job at $200 is about right. about $100 is their material cost. the rest is labor, overhead, profit.

cut the machine out of the equation and make your own fins and your cost will be below $200. get some eps and make your own blanks you can do it for around $150. find a good supplier or get a resale license and save a few more bucks on your glassing materials.

you are right in seeing there is not much money in making boards. if you are a family man, you can do it if your wife makes good money! or if you are a bachelor, then you can slum it and surf when its good and travel the world sleeping on couches and building boards. if you are not in either situation - better keep it a hobby!

9

A very wize man once told me "Its not how you sell, its how you buy".   Shape it yourself and glass it yourself and you should easily be able to get your typical shortboard cost down to about $200.....perhaps even less if you buy right.  That is even for the hobbyist.

I buy blanks and the basics from the two following sources http://greenlightsurfsupply.com/ and http://surfsource.net/   I have locally sourced many of the other things needed like 3m 233 masking tape, chip brushes tools etc. at a fraction of the cost of buying from the surf specific companies. 

The key really is how you buy. 

I'm working on one right now.  Here is the breakdown:

Blank:  $92

Resin, Catylist and surfacing agent:  $35 to do a 6' board

Cloth:  $22

Fin boxes with fins:  $25  http://surfsource.net/store/category/fins_sets_boxes/  I use the Standard fin system set at the bottom.  I am a huge fan of this fin system and it is also the least costly and probably the easiest to install and strongest out there.

Leash Plug:  $1

That adds up to $175 and add to that perhaps another $20 per board for shop supplies like tape, brushes, blades, paint buckets, logo paper etc.

Keep in mind, I'm just a hobbyist.  I've done 7 boards this year with another two to be done in the next month.  I buy mid quantities at a time and get things shipped up from Florida and buy some things locally from another company for convenience.  If I were buying based on doing 20 boards a year I could cut my costs by another 10 to 15%.  If I bought the blanks 8 at a time I'd net the blank cost down to about $88.  If I bought the resin 5 gallons at a time instead of 1 at a time I'd save a bit there and if I bought the big rolls of cloth instead of 30 yards at a time I'd save there too.  I'm sure if I bought chip brushes and other things I use in bulk I could cut those costs even further.

I'm guessing a production shop is turning out a completed HP shortboard for about $150 perhaps as low as $120 in material costs.  Not counting labor of course.

10

First of all, you are not shaping if you buy a machined blank. You are tweaking a 90% finished blank. That’s where all your big costs are too.

If you want to cut costs way down, you can go with 2 lb EPS blocks and hot wire then shape them yourself. I’ve got blanks down to as low as $5 a board, so with the glassing which I also do, a board is in the $100 - $150 range minus fin costs.  

I have bought PU blanks for as little as $10 by shopping around and getting surplus or seconds. Craigslist is your friend. The most I’ve paid has been $35 for a PU blank. Then shape it yourself, and save even more money. Working with seconds will help you learn a lot too.

You can get resin in 5 gallon batches and save there. Also just get laminating resin and wax additive to avoid getting sanding resin. I don’t do gloss, so I save there too. You can make you own fins too, but foiling them is a messy job. 

11

here is a model i have adopted:

price your boards by: cost (blank and outsourced glass job) + $100 for shaping. that will put your boards at around $350-$400 for a clear sanded finish shortboard - a fair deal for you (a novice 'shaper') and for your friends.  sidenote: if you use a machine cutting service - there goes $35 from your $100. that is actually a good deal for you the 'shaper'. you get $65 for doing almost nothing!

this way, for every 2 boards for someone else and you have enough money to make yourself a new board. (fully shape and glass your own personal boards).  If you dont make that many for yourself, then you have some extra cash for new tools, extra materials, surf trips, wetsuits, take the old lady out, etc.

you can make money through ding repair as others have said but you have to be careful who is coming by your house.  You can run into some real random sketchballs with ding repair.

 

12

Thank a lot for all the responses guys, lots of good info here which I will put to use right away.  I figure I'm not getting screwed too bad on my prices, if I buy in bulk as is suggested here I can knock a lot of the cost down. 

I kind of knew I'd get a lot of flak for saying I'm machine shaping and having it glassed, that that is not shaping.   My opinion on that is that just because you are a pro with a planer, and can knock out a board in 45 minutes using templates and "know how", doesn't necessarily mean you know squat about what makes a board work.  I mean, don't all the big name shapers do the same thing?  They develop a few boards by hand, then they are all machine cut after that after they tweak the design.   I am more interested in learning what design elements influence a board's performance, and how to apply those elements together to make a killer board for someone.   If that is not shaping, then I'll retract my statement and say I want to become a surfboard DESIGNER.   And yeah, if I can ask a few critical questions and get some data about a surfer, and in return get him onto a board that does exactly what he or she needs it to do,  then I DO think it's worth $60 bucks even though I may not have touched the board for more than 30 mins. 

I can and have hand shaped, its just not economical for someone that doesn't do it every day.   I'm not that fast with a planer nor do I have the correct shop space to do it right so machine shaping makes sense to me.  I'm a mechanical designer by trade and I am exceptionally good at 3d design, so why not do what I'm good at? 

 

13

Nothing wrong with that IMO.

How many boards have you built?

14

Made 6 on my own so far, 4 more in the works, but have been involved with about 5 others with some friends.  I know its not a lot but I have been studying my personal quiver and all of my friends' boards for the last 6 months or so and reading a lot.  Taking dimensions, studying bottom contours, looking at rail foils, riding friends' boards and trying to nail down makes a board work.  Even read a few masters' thesis' on fluid mechanics of surfing.  Man it's a complicated subject.  Minor changes are so significant in hydrodynamics.   It's kind of hard to know until you really get on something and try it yourself, that's why I was asking about keeping the costs lower.  I want to make and ride as many different designs as possible and ride them, but I can't afford to keep building boards for myself at that cost.  All the boards I have made are just fine for an intermediate surfer.  Matter of fact the last board I made for myself is my favorite out of my quiver of 8 (5 of whichare other shapers like CI, Stretch, etc), probably mostly because the volume, width, and rocker are right for my local break.   Maybe some fairly high level surfers and certainly pros would have a problem with my designs, but I'm not shaping for them! 

15

ha’  another dongle swinger

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  ya get a job in china

 

 

   cheers huie

16

‘My opinion on that is that just because you are a pro with a planer, and
can knock out a board in 45 minutes using templates and “know how”,
doesn’t necessarily mean you know squat about what makes a board work.’

 

You’ll go far on this website son son!!

 

Hey look surfboard materials are expensive thats just the way it is, surfboards have retailed at the same cost for the last 20 years, whilst materials have gone up because there are so many people doing it, China and Thailand didn’t help by turning the surfboard into a fashionable consumer item that can be bought with your next pair of board shorts. 

The machine makes it a piece of piss for rookies to handshape one board in the garage, discover it’s pretty much the most difficult thing you could ever attempt to master (Hand shaping a high performance surfboard to a high degree of accuracy and then repeating this).  Then head down to the cutting house with your blank (you don’t even need a blank, cutting house will provide!!) a hot $35 in your hand, thats half the price of a tank of gas, dust it off, maybe in the shaping bay they have on site!! then give it to the glasser thats next door to the machine!!

 

Some funky logo’s you made on Ilistrator, bang!! Your in business as a shaper/designer after making one board!! You’ve made a surfboard with 30minutes of personal labor for the cost of $320 with absolutely no overheads, fuck thats unreal!!

17

I don’t see why you guys are flaming him.

The guy’s building boards and stoked on learning how they work.

Nothing wrong with that.

18

Hey… ya gotta start somewhere, right?

My advice, fwiw… the OP was about getting costs down. Good. Focus on that. Start by hand shaping your ALL of your boards. Forget the CNC. Save the money, learn to use your hands and eyes to the best of your ability. I know of no “board designer” who isn’t a shaper. Not all shapers are designers, but all designers are shapers… at least as far as I’m concerned.

19

Marsh, you are totally right on and I agree, it's ridiculously simple to get a finished board these days off of a machine.  Luckily, just because you can pull some tangents in the software and create a board file, doesn't mean your board will work.  And the board design software that is out there, is very primitive and buggy.   Btw I don't claim to be an expert. I'm a rookie at this for sure, but you just have to do it to learn.  I'm only trying to learn as efficiently as possible. 

I wanted to make sure and shape at least a couple boards by hand, just to get an appreciation for it.  An appreciation and hats off to those in the business that still do shape by hand.  It takes incredible talent to reproduce a design by hand shaping, and a lot of work from start to finish.  Surfboards are worth every penny of the $500 you pay for them off the rack.   

I know this is a hot topic but I'm sorry, I don't see the point.  Why do something manually over and over again just because?  I mean, if you develop a working design on the computer that can be cut to machine accuracy every time why do it by hand?  Do you still write all your documents with a pencil and paper because that's the way it used to be done?  Do you still walk to the tv to change your channels?  I mean, technology is everywhere why not take advantage? 

It would take me years to become proficient with a planer to the level where I can cut a board in 45 minutes.  And at the slow rate I'm building, I won't learn as much about design and what makes them work.  I'd rather spend the time analyzing data, and surfing my designs, develop an understanding, and maybe have a chance at making some breakthroughs in design than in the shop mowing foam by hand. 

 

 

 

20

dongle swinger.  I love it.  Aussie’s have the best names for people and things.  

Sorry marso, I usually don’t begrudge anyone their fun.  And it’s probably the generation in which you were raised, but I find your whole,‘I want it all now’ trip pathetic.  The reason I do things over and over again manually is because it IS difficult to do well.  Because doing someting the hard way builds character.  I hope you will forgive me, but it is probably just the generation in which I was raised.   Please continue… mike