board + rider flotation effect in steeper waves

[ron]

I’m hoping to clear something up:  the issue at hand addresses the effect of paddling into a good wave on boards that have you floating higher or lower in the water.  I’ve noted some references to the issue in threads that concern themselves with float vs volume, etc.  I am more interested in the practical effect that occurs when you are paddling into a good, steep swell on boards that either float you more or less. 

I’m only questioning the effect in boards 5’10’ to 6’3’ and have noted floatier, wider boards sometimes get hung up in the lip on steeper waves when very low volume boards, regardless of shape, get in easier. Could be the paddler, could be the board.  I’ve queried this and haven’t gotten a consensus, although there must be a correct answer.

Any thoughts?

[everysurfer]

Something similar to what plus one shaper wrote.

I have two almost identical boards, one was shaped to be the big brother to the other.  Same rocker and length, but one is about a 1/4 to 3/8 thicker, and about 3/4" wider.  The bigger one was shaped for a smaller, more gutless wave, that the smaller one would have trouble on.

On a small gutless day, the board with more volume does paddle faster, and catches waves better, but on a steeper wave, it paddles slower, and gets hung at the top. 

All I can figure is that on a steeper wave, the wave is moving faster, and more water is moving up the face.  So it might be that with more water moving faster up the face, there is more area underneath it to resist the water, so it paddles forward slower, and gets hung at the top.  It might also be the orientation to level.  Maybe on the smaller board, I can press down with my chest and lighten with my knees to get the board pointing down easier, where the other board has to much volume to manipulate like that.  But if I went to a longer and bigger board, maybe I would be lifted even higher out of the water, so my body would have less drag, and overall speed would dominate.

Just don’t know, but throwing ideas out.

[Shipley]

Tell me where these good steep waves are and I will show you.

[beerfan]

If most of the foam in the board is in the front half ( wider nose than tail, forward widepoint ), i find the front half "floats up, as the wave stands up and you can definately get caught in the lip, and it makes it hard to get into them. Not impossible, but does make it hard. If there's more width and float behind centre, the back of the board lifts, and the nose goes down, helping on later steeper takeoffs. My backyard hack opinion. I have a 7'6'' shortboard, 3'' thick. Paddles great, but in steeper waves, the nose points down easily ( i think because the back end lifts up ), so it handles steeper waves much much better than my mal or fish.

 

 

[Shipley]

I’ve found that super thin, narrow, over fined, rockered out potatoe chip HPSBs ride deeper and slower with more control on late drops under the lip-let the wave do the work take offs.

 

[artz]

Just too many variables to consider, just one aspect of how volume will effect how a board will drop on a steep wave. Less nose does allow a board to drop. However weight up front can be good. Yeah it's confusing. A wide nose has to displace more water to get to that point that gravity takes over. Now you need some volume to float your body. less float the better you have to be at paddling. you have to put more energy out to over come the effect of water rushing up the face of the wave.  now there are rails to deal with as well as the most important part of a Board the bottom rocker.  too much you push water to little and well it gets very tricky to ride. now consider all this together. Plus fins and now you have just scratched the surface of a very complex subject one that came about by trial and error over  a couple of thousand years.  Even the last 50 years have been pretty much trial and error. Some guy make a grand pronouncement and makes a Board Someone else does another claiming his is better. In the end everyone has their own concept of what makes a good board all have Pseudoscience to back up claims. Some find an audience and others don't.  

Now back to getting into That fast hollow wave. In the end it is you the pilot the guy on that board, that's the biggest factor. There are those that take Fish into very hollow very fast heavy waves and they love that little fish in those conditions. I have witnessed this at places that have sucked most of the water off rock ledges. As the saying goes it's the Indian and not the arrow but if the Indian knows what arrow works best to overcome his own limitations then that is one smart Indian.

[ron]

I think Brandon has it right on the matter of deeper takeoffs on the steep ones.  Very low volume seems to make it “easier” to make a late takeoff, deeper.  I’ve seen guys on stubbys make these waves also, but when I use one of them on these waves, always felt out of  control or get caught too high on the wave and stuck in or on the lip.

And, yeah, there are guys like Rastovich who can ride a toilet seat in waves like that, but I need all the advantage I can find.

[patrickfreen]

I watched a number of heats of the Quick pro France this week and I saw the guys, on average using only 2 strokes to get into those steep late-takeoff waves. You know they’re  on low volume boards and they weren’t getting hung up at the top. This is reality - they do it, no getting away from it, no theorizing, no bullshit, no guessing. I envy them as I’m forced by age to ride higher volume boards but I’m faced with waves like that to some extent when it picks up at my local break. This is THE biggest challenge I face in my surfing. I would love to hear from a pro surfer or shaper about what the pro guys find works in those conditions.

[beerfan]

What works for the pros, works for the pros

[red_boards]

Low volume boards are mothers to paddle out, but they catch steep waves better. My take is that you (1) don’t get sucked backwards up the face as much and (2) can sink (the tail) to paddle in under the lip, rather than over it. In my mind it’s all about the dredge backwards. It’s nice, too, to be able to hold an edge on the drop, and I think that finer rails and tails help with that.

[NoPainNoGain]

I have made my fair share of boards that seem to hang up in the lip (which I think is due to forward volume / rocker). I agree with red that having more board in the water helps reduce being sucked back up the face. But I also struggle with the acceleration of wide / thick tailed boards in good waves (probably reflects on my standard of surfing more than anything else). I often find the jolt and uncontrollable acceleration towards the beach hard to deal with and counter-productive in better waves. That said I prefer a bit more width up front to aid paddling but dont necessarly find that this is a negative unless you add dis-porportionate amount of volume.

I  agree that there are too many factors in play to come to any reasonable consensus of opinion but think this is a great debate to have. If one persons opinion leads me to constructing a better board next time round that will be a positive.

However I would forget the pro's and thier seemingly few paddle strokes. Not only are these guys on custom shapes that they have tried and tested them thousands of times but they are (or should be) incredibly fit and experienced. A friend told me that whilst he was in Oz he watched Joel Parkinson and a couple of other ASP Aus regulars practice one arm paddle ins and then no-arm paddle ins !

In the end Artz touched on the critical path..... its the rider...... practice more and keep fit...... improvement will follow.

[patrickfreen]

I can understand the reluctance to consider what the pros are doing, but as I watched the heats ( you can go to the facebook Quik page and find the heats on demand where you can see them paddling into waves) I could see that a lot of times they were taking 2 and sometimes one stroke and you could see they weren’t straining so I think this is relevant for the avid in-shape surfer that’s in the water a lot. Yeah they’re great but a lot of us can hold our own in just the couple of strokes needed to catch waves from the spot they were in. They’re on more or less 5 pound , low volume boards that, till recently were the standard hpsb. So now some of them have dropped in length while keeping the nose full. I think a big part of it is their boards get up to speed real quick because of low mass - easier to get it moving. Again - this is just my thinking -  wish someone really knowledgeable would chime in here.

[slimeball]

A higher volume board gets you into the wave earlier,thats why you ride one right?But on a late drop they are too bouyant or fast and you can get pitched with the lip because your sitting on the water rather than in it as you would be with a low volume board.A low volume board is easier to control in a late take off as your rails are already buried before you start giving you more control..Just my thoughts

[lcc]

no hard rules, all depends on wave and rider…

At Sunset, thicker wider boards work best for most surfers as early entry by paddling your ass off as fast and early as possible is key…so more volume carried forward, matched up with appropriate rocker for max paddle and entry speed…

Pipe the opposite, take-off is under the lip, so thinner, narrower, less forward volume, more rocker = more control…

so reefs, beachbreaks, points, rider surfing/paddle ability, water temps, wetsuit thickness, all variables dumped into the blender for what works for who and where…

All requiring a shaper who can install the required volume without it getting in the way…

 

[artz]

[quote="$1"]

I can understand the reluctance to consider what the pros are doing, but as I watched the heats ( you can go to the facebook Quik page and find the heats on demand where you can see them paddling into waves) I could see that a lot of times they were taking 2 and sometimes one stroke and you could see they weren't straining so I think this is relevant for the avid in-shape surfer that's in the water a lot. Yeah they're great but a lot of us can hold our own in just the couple of strokes needed to catch waves from the spot they were in. They're on more or less 5 pound , low volume boards that, till recently were the standard hpsb. So now some of them have dropped in length while keeping the nose full. I think a big part of it is their boards get up to speed real quick because of low mass - easier to get it moving. Again - this is just my thinking -  wish someone really knowledgeable would chime in here.

 

Some very knowledgeable people have been giving answers. You just don't want to hear what they have to say. 

Look at the post by Icc ,his take on Island boards is spot on after some time you can identify a board built for pipe and one for places like Sunset. There was a time, I could do a no paddle take offs, wave had to be steep and starting to pitch. Bury the tail as deep as you can unweight the board it pushes forward while taping energy in the wave. Pop up, lay a big fat bottom turn and have some fun. Not about it was a pretty common move when caught inside and scrambling over waves, turn, bury and drop. Some were masters at this. 

 Boards are much more then just volumes they are a congratulation of integral inner related parts, each adding something to the mix. the biggest and most important part is the part that is in contact with the water. Now can we get Bill Barnfield in here? There's a guy who knows a few things about what works and whats Pure BS.

 

[/quote]

[fins]

volume , floatation , width , rocker , fins , foil and bottom contours aside

 

  I wonder if it is a fair assumption / comparison , the pros on the world tour vs the average swaylockian

 

  average age and fitness of the pros =

 

cf

 

average age and fitness of the 'average' swaylockian =

 

something to consider as I get older.

 

  this very issue [board selection , and paddling strength / timing / positioning / fitness] has lately been plaguing me , for a while , in fact .

It's a timely conversation for me , as  my brother and I were talking about it , after he took recent shots here of me one morning [on 'my fin tinkerings' thread , by the way].

 My stiffness , among other things , was / is evident , compared to the average 18- maybe ? 30 year old?  ....No surprises there , eh ?! 

 

I'm sure others here are experiencing the same thing ?

 

  It's an interesting subject, and I hope one that people will share their EXPERIENCES about....

 

  bill BARNFIELD , please chime in ? ...

 

  and

'plus one shaper ' 

 

 and greg webber too ?

 

 and , where is simon anderson ? we need HIM ,  here

 ...he still rips on shortboards , and he ain't [sorry , Simon !] no spring chicken now

 

  cheers !

 

  ben

 

less opinions more experience please

[artz]

fins my comments are directed to the average surfer of average fitness and ability vs the pro.  We could even cal on Mike Daniels. Can't go back to 18 but you can learn to surf smarter. Reflexes might be slower but you can still perform with some style. 

 If I were more conviving I would be telling all those average guys buy that paper thin 5'8" sure would add me in getting my wave count up.

[fins]

haha yeah, I'd like to  tell gullible people that ! [So that,  in a few months,  they are no longer surfing , due to back problems [joking , but it could be true , if they DID !] ]

 

  my surf supplies guy Colin , at 49 years old , shapes  and rides  THEM  [well, 5'11 and 6' and 6'1 versions , mostly]  .

 

 And , he outsurfs guys HALF his age .... in fact , he wins contests against them ! 

 

.....but , he is the exception ...

 

( I'm  guessing  that most of us 'oldies' here don't rip like he does ! )

 

cheers !

 

  ben

 

 

p.s. -

 a couple of things I have been thinking about a lot lately [and trying to DO !] ...

1. One thing I realise more every day is ...definately , if I could master the " push the [ more  thin / finer  needed ? ] tail in , no paddle takeoff " ...well, THAT would HELP , LOTS !

 2. Also [as my brother said while here , and watching footage and looking at the photos of me that he took , was ] " the first paddle or two is THE most important "

....Whatever I am riding , I DEFINATELY need to get going FASTER !! ....you guys , too , or not ??

 

[artz]

Fast is a relative term and if you say Fast is a relative term.It only means you need to lose weight and go faster.  I just I mean just started doing yoga to work on balance and get back some of that lost reflex and muscle control.

[tinkerer]