It’s all part of the progression. Some tinkering works better than others. A lot of these things would most likely still be in wide spread use if they did a bit more than just work. I could put a piece of unfoiled plywood in a Bahne box and it would work. It just wouldn’t work well enough to suit me (or most people). I think that some of the stuff people come up with is nothing more than attempt to correct some lack of ability or glitch in the designers own surfing. Sometimes we tend to think every Surfer has the same problem we do. It’s great that someone comes up with a fin setup that helps him or her get speed out of a cutback or turn. I’ve never had a lack of speed coming forward out of a cutback. So I don’t see the advantage in a two box fin/ two fin set up. My favorite board is a 9’4 Square Tail with an 8” Rainbow Rake fin. Coincidently and not by intent; very Nat Young Sam.
God help any one who has the same problem I do, because that means they made a really sh***y longboard lol.
If you look at the clip of me riding it (I’m a beginning LB rider, haven’t ridden any board over 8’ more than 12 times, total, in my life) I think you can tell from how the water is rolling over the deck well forward of the sweet spot, that the board has way too much nose rocker, and too much rocker overall. Ironically, that makes the board easier to ride for an adv-int shortboarder just learning to ride LBs and noseriders. In short, the board is a noserider that doesn’t really noseride. In that way it has a lot in common with the 1st `10 or 15 boards I made. Nearly all of them worked, just not for the waves and situations intended.
Anyway, I have the good luck of being neighborly with Halcyon, so I had the good fortune to try a lot of different fins in the 9 footer (technically 8-11 after nose chop), already described. I didn’t find much on the web about the butterfly fin after riding it. I think this thread probably has more info about it than any other source on the web, now.
The 9-footer has goofy but not unique problems. I thought it was pretty neato that of all the fins I tried, two very unusual ones were the most pleasurable to ride. Could be of use to someone in the future, maybe not. But I bet yes. In, say, another 12 or 14 years or so. And then that person can catch undeserved stink-post for it, too. lol
That’s a clip of someone riding a “Butterfly” fin?? Doesn’t even work as good as I thought it would. That fin by the way was I believe designed for a particular model of board that Dale shaped. But not intended to be used exclusively On the “Malibu Express”.
Ha…(1) That’s me, & not illustrative of what that green/red incarnation would surf like under the feet of someone more skilled, as (2) I didn’t surf for 20 years, (2) am a beginner again, had only been on a board over 8’ maybe 14 times in my life, only a few additional times on an 8 footer a bud made, and (3) no skilled longboarder would call the board a good one (too much rocker, front half of the board, by at least 2", maybe almost 3" - it’s a plough).
That said, I got the current edition of the V-fin. It’s not remotely the same as the red & green ones - it’s much, much larger and seems more upright.
The vintage red fin, which seems to be the same as the green fin Rich let me ride, helped an inherently sluggish board feel more lively. The current edition made the board sluggish again. Probably like thw majority of proven fins I’ve tried it would work much better on a board with better rocker. The smaller vintage one feels better (to me, maybe not a more skilled rider) on the crappy board, and maybe would feel worse than the “update” on a better board.
If anybody has the red or green vintage one w the center hole, I’m down to trade just about any other fin i have for it.
What I’m seeing there is not a criticism of surfing ability. What I’m basically saying is I don’t see it being as beneficial to average surfing. We all know that really good surfers can paddle out on an ironing board and make it look good. That’s a given.
So, by that logic, my not being “really good” (not being sarcastic, I think I surf “OK,” nothing beyond or less than that) should be more useful than someone more skilled.
Taking into account what I already related, and what you can see – and you can see how the water flowing over the deck confirms what I say about rocker, I think – what would be different, what would you see or not see, if the fin was working better just as a fin?
Still looking for one of those earlier, smaller, less upright butterfly fins, like the red one in the photo earlier in the thread!
If anybody has one I want to buy or trade for it – I have plenty of fin options if trade is preferred, including some custom fins.
Actually; Yes! If it makes little or no noticeable difference in an average surfers surfing or for that matter a Pro’s; then what is there to rave about? I don’t see turns or cutbacks that are harder or snappier that can be credited to the fin. Don’t see any floaters or prolonged noserides. So what is that fin supposed to do?
I think the same could be said of almost any fin. I can change from a 10” Rake to a 8 1/2” Flex fin and my board(any board) will feel more lively.
So … surfing at Indicators or P.P. 1st peak on a head high day, if you can get a wave in da crazy crowds, would speak to fin performance in spades.
Seems it has potential from my point of veiw but then the variety of boards out there make the end assessment make that assessment scetchy.
The way it performs on a low rockered old school board and a modern performance longboard will be quite different. I wouldn’t sell the thing short.
As with any fin design on the right stick it might light things up. The old model is shallow in depth and would be good on small days in heavy kelp
conditions. The new model is simply out of proportion to what the fin was intended IMHO, marketing is the rage and something unusual and showy
often sells.
Finnally sorting out how things perform subjectively as though you really know whats going on without have things under foor is just plain stupid.
We have our failures and successes, but with small minds or without experimentation we get nowhere.
Stay Stoked, Rich
Oh I’m into experimentation and my mind is open. Stuff that was put forward in the sixties and discarded is usually stuff that didn’t improve anybody’s surfing. When it is brought back it is because it has become “Retro”. Or—. Because a newer younger generation wasn’t surfing when it came around the first time. They weren’t there to remember whether or not something worked.
The boards of the 60s had very limited performance.
Because surfboards have evolved so much some things that were discarded as ineffective
were never given a full chance for the very reason that things were not tested against
a broad performance spectrum on the wide variety of boards that we have today.
There are many things that have been hyped over the years that are the trend of
the week. Marketing has swayed many surfers who know little and care less about
board performance or fluid dynamics. It’s the way things are. It won’t change.
I watch some of the old films and see some grand things happening. It’s inspiring.
Mahalo, Rich
In 1960, when I was shaping for Velzy, I discussed the Butterfly Fin and it’s merit, with Del Cannon. Del had ridden the 7’ 11’’ balsa board that had the original fin setup on it. He described it as ‘’…too squirrely…‘’ That comment has to be understood in the context of the ‘‘normal’’ resistance felt from a large ‘‘D’’ fin, of the period. Squirrely probably meant sensitive, compared to the normal, expected pushback response. When I did my first ‘‘Tri-Fin’’ setup, in 1964, I felt that it was interesting, but ‘‘too loose’’ in the context of what was ‘‘normal’’ in surfboards of the day. The now shorter lighter boards of today, may well be benefited by the use of a Butterfly type fin. Someone just needs to work on it.
Yeh, that was 10 seconds of the first wave (I think even smaller than it looks) that I took with an unfamiliar fin, the 10 seconds that the Surfline cam caught. The wave was longer, maybe another 3 times as long as that first 10 seconds, and it felt like I got off as good a cutback as I’ve gotten on the board in the 6 or 8 times I’ve ridden it now (a 9.5" Rainbow TK Flex might turn a little better on the heel side for me, but it bogs faster when transitioning from the pocket to flat parts of the wave), but that turn wasn’t caught by the cam so who knows. Usually my rides are not remotely as shredful as I thought they were when they were happening lol.
The board wants to bog so fast when leaving the power of the wave, though – and as an LB’ing noob I’m probably almost always too far forward when initiating cutbacks or reentries – that the little speed check you see in the clip is about as “radical” a cutback as the board is going to make in waves that small and unjuicy. With one of the MDT or TK Flex fins that ride somewhat OK in the board, I don’t think it makes even that much of a cutback on that wave – probably not nearly, and all that would have happened there is a stall without any kind of turn to speak of.
I think it’s specifically the weaknesses of the board that make the green fin Rich kindly lent me a good match for the board. It’s a common problem, a wonky board requiring a somewhat unique solution that might not be as good a choice for a board that behaves better, or more like one would like it to behave (“better” being a subjective, rather than objective judgment, much as sometimes certain types of people seem to assert otherwise). I think fins you might think were better, without even seeing them ridden by the rider in question, aren’t better in this board. Probably most riders more skilled than me would have the same finding on this board. I suspect you would think some of the fins I already named are better. For me, in this board, they really aren’t.
Thanks for this, Surffoils – just sent ya PM. Very much appreciated.
Something I’ve never seen discussed (though surely it has been) is that most intermediate and beginning LB-ers are riding equipment that is unduly difficult for them to ride, either because too modern and high-performance (too sensitive for beginners or intermediates) or too unresponsive and difficult to turn. Before making the LB in the clip (and in the post I linked), I rode several by different currently in vogue shapers, one of which was a high-performance 10’ glider made for a friend who is 20 lbs heavier than me (I’m about 215 lbs). I never rode a board over 7 ft that was so hard to catch waves on, or that was so squirrely (meaning sensitive and responsive to every weight shift and change in foot position – not even 6-5 “potato”-type eggs with long, deep doubles that are looser than most shortboards). Every time I moved my feet on that board, the board responded more than I expected it to, making it hard for me to control.
That experience of that board doesn’t surprise me as the shaper is a master shaper and master surfer over 60 with whom I occationally surf. His style is a pleasure to watch because he’s always on the edge of being out of control, and he loves for the board to surprise him continually - very expressive. I think the board is what he wants, which inherently means it’s not really a good board for beginners or intermediates. Really maybe only 1 in 100 surfers (or maybe even 1 in 1000) surfers are close to his level, yet everybody says that board is phenomenal. I hated it.
Other LBs I rode in the past were the opposite, stiff and hard to turn, but entered waves much better and with much greater wave-catching range, even at smaller lengths and lower volumes. I’ve ridden friends’ boards who can’t surf at all, and they surf their boards better than I can because they’ve adapted to mainly going straight on boards that are very difficult to turn. On those, when I take off, I generally fall face first into the side of the wave when I try to make my first bottom turn.
Maybe it’s because I’m an LB’ing noob, but I don’t see how there can be any absolutes about good/bad when it comes to boards or fins. And then when you add in the variation of self-shapes and flawed boards – a whole other challenge as far as matching fins to boards – good/bad is even more variable.
On the whole, the review part of my original posts was just to share what to me was a neato discovery, i.e. that a real weird fin was a lot of fun to ride on a wonky board that wasn’t as much fun with much more established, readily available contemporary fins.
The guy who runs that site is Seb. Let him know I sent you.
Too late! I already bought it! They were great to deal with (thus far) - speedy and helpful. 