I made my first surfboard a while ago which came out pretty well. A friend of mine was vacuum bagging and suggested i make a composite surfboard for kitsurfing with as it`d be stronger.
Well, i wish i`d never gone this route and i`d stuck with a normal blank!
I`ve managed to pretty much create the blank with high density foam forming the composite layers which i `ve vaccumed together. For the rails though i was a bit stuck and ended up gluing 2 lengths of the high density foam down each rail ready to shape later.I glued them on with no more nails adheisive.
This did`nt go well , holding them on with tape while the glue set and i ended up with some gaps between the layers. I`m a little bit stuck now - first up i tried to fill them with some epoxy, but this just sank through and dribbled over the edges making a mess which i`m now slowly removing with a razorblade.
The gaps are about 2mm in places - is there anything i can fill them with that nots messy and will set sandable? its a pain when the epoxy set because this has made the rails really difficult to shape as the epoxy is rock hard in places and then you`ve got the softer foam producing very uneven sanding, hence why i `m removing it with a razor.
Should i even bother filling them and jsut finish shaping the rails and glass it? I`m not too bothered how the board looks now, just that its shaped evenly.
A perfect gap free rail to core joint is possible,
The picture shown is a 5/8" wide Core-cell A550 rail attached to a 1.5# Home Depot EPS core… Note the added nose impact block…
All done under vacuum bag… What you see is the standard void free bond, not a lucky glue up… Save the masking tape for pin lines and paint, not attaching hard rail glue-ups…
On your current build, shape the rails first, then fill them later with a micro balloon mixture… Less glue to sand…
good ole tape 5 minutes a side ( i use an inudstrial strength 5 minute epoxy that is cured in 5 minute and ready to shape)
go glue some with some five mintue epoxy and tape then try and pull
it off. its a simple test . the eps foam will break and 100 times over
before you seperate a glue joint. also the foam core is already filled
with voids so vac bagging the rails on is a waste of time. KISS.
there
is no gaps in my joints on any of my boards . btw tape is a good method
for people using high density foam rails and who dont have the gluing
jigs that professional composite board builders like danny hess use.
anyone that does wood rails uses jigs. not vaccum bags.
vac bags are for clamping on skins and have no other purpose for surfboards other then infusion which is a dead horse anyway IMO.
You win Paul… I guess I’m wrong, and no one in the world would glue on core-cell rails, as well as skins, the way I do , under vacuum…
I’ll be building and showcasing some really cool looking core-cell based/ bamboo skinned twinzer kite surfboards in the near future… I hope you like them, I also hope you learn to appreciate contemporary kite surfboard construction…
I’d use a spackle if it’s just a gap between the rail and the inner blank, the rails are pretty solid and you aren’t worried that they will come loose while shaping. It’s really light, shapes just like foam, and I don’t think it will cause a de-lamination problem. It’s also white, so it may blend in. If you give the rail a nice lap, it may be hidden with a solid color or a color swirl. Just put tape on one side and fill from the other, or fill it some then put tape then stuff it good from the opposite side.
If you need to add something to hold the rail onto the blank, you have a bit more of a problem.
I normally glue my rails on with 5 min epoxy or wood glue and a lot of tape. I try to get them as close to the right thickness to avoid cutting through the epoxy as much as I can. I’ve also used Elmer’s glue, both the white stuff and the blue PU, and I have been using spray on glue that is OK for foam lately. I’ve had the foam come part with the white stuff and the spray on, but nothing that has been a total disaster. I’ve used thin bamboo BBQ skewer sticks to hold the foam together when things get loose. Just push them in far enough that they’ll be out of site when you re-glue the bad spot, then you just have to fill tiny holes here and there. I cut the skewers to the length I want with diagonal snips, then re-sharpen the end with a razor blade. I have a lot less waste that way.
I’ve even cut the rails off a finished board, then glued on new rails bands and reshaped them. You could always do that if you want, but it’s better to do that kind of stuff before you glass the board.
hi kiterider. excuse me im not really sure where your coming from there. its an assumption perhaps to believe i havent tried vaccum bagging laminates and rails and infusion or disscussed it in depth with experts in the composite industry. i present a simple and fast STARTING POINT to build composite surfboards that can hold up to any abuse. i understand very well what you are doing and can tell you outright that its almost a moot point if you are using pvc. wood is far superior to pvc in all ways . a glued wooden rail done with clamps on a jig is infinitely stronger then vaccum bagging pvc onto eps. besides that, the weakest link in the the construciton is eps . eps breaks easily . i could glue on the rails with my five year old kids paste glue and the eps will fail before the glue joint. i have done the tests. do the tests
get a piece of pvc and vag bag 3oz laminate to it and then do one by hand right next to it, then break them. they both break easily. the bagged laminate strength is indistinguisable from a hand laminate and weight savings are negligible.
you assumed i hadnt used spray finishes. i have! im actually pretty damm good with a spray gun, i can confidently spray a pearl or metallic and ntb freehand with an airbrush
do not take it personally me disagreeing with the methods you are teaching. this is what you are doing you are teaching. i disagree with what your teaching and presenting what i think are simpler methods that make a very nice board. this should not be a problem for you
i am getting tired of these exchanges . i hope that you actually do present your construction methods here as i am sure i will learn something and that you have extensive knowledge. I am not questioning this . i am questioning how you present it to beginers
hey guys - relax! All opinions are helpful and a i really appreciate the different adivce.
Here`s some pics of my board so far. I used a foam core from Wickes (uk version of Home Depot i guess) and the homeblown high density foam for top and bottom laminates which i vac bagged on with a layer of 12oz glass.
I then glued the rails on using a strong glue holding on with tape although i later used some tiny tacks which worked well and i can just knock then further into the board once the glue is set.
Paul, you are condescending and speak in absolutes. It is annoying. It’s one thing to share. It’s a whole other thing to be derisive and my-way-or-the-highway all the time. Get off your high-coccoon.
I’ve quoted my original post for the purpose of clearing up a few things:
I offered Outonawave an alternate method of attaching rails, a method that frankly leaves them 100% void free and strongly attached…I feel masking tape can not offer that security…imho… Then again, I do realize that some people do not have access to vacuum bagging equipment , so other methods are used…
The photo was taken looking down at the semi-shaped, unfinished deck side of the board, and does not show the ( full outline sized) 3mm. core-cell bottom skin that was vacuum glued onto the eps at the same time as the rails were attached . So it’s done all in one process… The core cell rails are glued to the bottom core-cell skin as well as the eps core during this step… I hope that’s an acceptable method of doing things???
I then shape the deck and rails, then finally bag on the deck core-cell…Sorry for not clearly showing the attached bottom skin in the photo…
I offered an easy, quick and safe way for Outonawave to fix his immediate problem, and did not tell him to tear it all apart and “do it my way”
Obviously my methods offend the sensibilities of some of the builders here, and they therefore feel the
need to let it be known to all here that I am building boards all wrong… Calling me out, on all I say here, if you will…
I should have stuck with my plan and resisted posting ideas on this group for that very reason…
The winds are over 20 knots. this morning, I’m going kitesurfing…
Hang in there. I’m really interested in your build methods, just as I’m interested in Paul’s methods. I’ve followed his build threads every time he posts them. Now I’d like to see more details of some of your builds.
Since you use veneers and pvc skins I’m interested in your views on the merits of each. I realize you build your kiteboards a lot tougher than we normally do for surfboards but I’m still interested in seeking that elusive combo of strength and ride.
Don’t let the bastards get you down. For every ****head there are 10 others who appreciate all usefull comments.
For me, if I see something I like, I take note of it, but don’t comment. No sense up till now to “pile on the band wagon”. I, and I’m sure others have copied and pasted into our notebooks, the writings of yourself, Kokua, Surfding, Deadshaper, Kensurf and many others.
Just because you don’t get positive feedback, doesn’t mean you aren’t noticed.
We all know who the pains are. It isn’t you, and I hope it isn’t me.
excuse me guys once again poor old paul is under attack. my post is in defense of kiteriders statement./
“What you see is the standard void free bond, not a lucky glue up…
Save the masking tape for pin lines and paint, not attaching hard rail
glue-ups.…”
this is a response to a link to my blog which shows it being done with tape. my boards are anything but lucky glue ups
**read my blog on how i do the boards before you make a comment!!!
**
i get 1200$ for a compsand board and later ones i built have endured many years of abuse in heavy waves (4 to 8 ft hawaiian) without so much as a dent.
so who is condescending who
by all means gang up on me but you wont get a bite.
so the old paul would have said “£$%£%@”
but actually id like to stay on swaylocks and im being trolled here and you are turning it around
Why would you think anyone would say such a thing about you? Unless you meant to include yourself in the “10 others who appreciate all useful comments.” Just trying to keep Kiterider’s spirits up. Positive encouragement is always in the spirit of swaylock’s.
Have you read my Homecoming King thread? It is a tradition in the States at the end of football (american football) season to honor those who we all admire. I saw you got a mention.
All opinions are helpful and a i really appreciate the different adivce.
